Can you believe that this little indie show premiered way back in March of 2014?
That’s an entire decade of The Bittersweet Life! On Episode 559: The Bittersweet Life Origin Story we look back on how it all began.
Have you been with us from the very start? Or have you joined us late but caught up on all the episodes over the years? Or perhaps those first few seasons are a mystery that you’ve never tapped?
Either way we’re going to have fun on this episode. In honor of 10 (and a half) years of this show (and actually 11 since the taping of this pilot episode in Katy’s Trastevere apartment) we listen all the way back to Episode Number One, and comment on it in real time.
How relevant is that discussion? What was it like for Tiffany, with zero audio background, to tape her first podcast episode? How much has the show changed and evolved over the decade?
We hope you’ll enjoy listening back as much as we did.
And if you haven’t heard those early seasons, why not dig into our archives? There are some real gems back in our early era.
You can listen right here, or find the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, and elsewhere.
Related Episodes:
Episode 500: Celebrating 500 Episodes!
Episode 446: Why Do Anything for Ten Years?
Five key takeaways from the episode:
- The podcast “The Bittersweet Life” is celebrating its 10-year anniversary, having started in 2014 with hosts Katy Sewall and Tiffany Parks discussing life as American expats in Rome.
- The hosts reflect on how their lives and perspectives have changed over the 10 years, including Tiffany’s long-term residency in Rome and Katy’s return to Seattle.
- The first episode explored the theme “Is beauty enough?” regarding living in Rome, discussing the city’s aesthetic appeal versus practical challenges of expat life.
- They discuss cultural differences between Italy and the US, including work culture, social norms, and attitudes towards foreigners.
- The hosts reflect on how the podcast has evolved over time, from its initial format and production challenges to its current state, expressing gratitude to long-time listeners who have supported the show.
Full Episode Transcript:
Katy
Hello, this is The Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
Tiffany and Katy both in Rome right now. Hallelujah. And today we are celebrating, although it is a belated celebration, but we are celebrating 10 years of The Bittersweet Life.
Tiffany
10 years on the air?
Katy
Yeah, 10 years on the air. The friendship, of course, has lasted a lot longer if you’ve listened from the beginning. Tiffany and I met on the school bus in the sixth grade, so the friendship is much longer lasting. But the show itself, a decade, a decade old.
Tiffany
I know. And even more than that, because I feel like it was, like you said, it’s a little belated. So I think, I think we first went on the air in March of 2014, and so we’re now in October. So, yeah, ten and a half years. It’s. And we started taping before we went live. We banked several episodes and so I think we even started taping around Christmas time. November or December of 2013.
Katy
Yeah, I think that’s right. And I mean, like every good podcast, a note to podcasters, or would be podcasters. It doesn’t hurt to practice a little before you start putting it out on the air. And so we did have a moment where we’d had to figure out what we were and we also had to figure out the intro to the show. How’s it going to start? All the details. Tiffany had never done radio of any kind prior. I, of course, was a radio professional going on over a decade, I think, when we started the show. But I was in working for NPR and making a very different kind of radio than what we were attempting to do with The Bittersweet Life. So today, to celebrate, we’ve decided that we’re going to listen back to the first episode, which we have not heard in a very, very long time. I wonder, are we going to seem like way younger? Because, I mean, 10 years is not an insignificant time to have pass in life.
Tiffany
No, it isn’t.
Katy
I mean, let’s think about 10 years ago when this episode begins. As you’ll hear, I’m living in Rome. Tiffany’s also living in Rome. I’m here for a year. I’m a brand new expat. I barely just arrived. And Tiffany has been here for 10 years. You’ve now been here for 20 years. But when we tape this episode, we both are married, but we don’t have any children. I still don’t have any children by choice. And Tiffany now has a son who is now eight years old.
Tiffany
Nine.
Katy
Sorry. Nine. I always think he’s eight. I want him to be eight. I do, too.
Tiffany
And I want him to be two. No, I’m just kidding. I don’t. I don’t want that.
Katy
Yeah. So nine years old. So that’s a significant difference. Back then, we lived on the same street. Now I live back in Seattle. Tiffany lives in a different neighborhood of Rome. So a lot has changed. And so I will be interested to hear if we’ve become wizened or ancient sounding in the 10 years prior or. I don’t know what’s changed.
Tiffany
I guess we’ll have to listen in to find out.
Katy
All right, so here we go. And we’re going to listen to the episode, but we’re also going to comment along the way on things that stand out to us as being particularly interesting or significant or something we remember about taping this show back in the day.
The first episode begins
Welcome to Rome. This is The Bittersweet Life with Katy Sewall and Tiffany Parks.
Tiffany
Is that the exact same opening that we still have today?
Katy
It is, yes. It’s exactly the same.
Tiffany
That’s pretty amazing that it has held the test of, you know, to the test of time.
Katy
Well, and I hear from listeners all the time that they actually really like the way that the episode opens. They like that intro. It’s interesting to me now because I was the one that created it, so I can picture in my head all the different layers of sound that it is. It’s a. It’s a fairly complicated edit compared to the way the rest of the show is, because there are a whole bunch of different sounds that are layered on top of each other. And when they come in, when do the bells arrive? When does the siren happen? When does the man cough? When do you hear the person walking on the cobblestone streets? All sounds I went looking for or recorded to try to make an opening that I. The goal was how can I introduce what Rome is to a person who’s been here a bunch of times or to a person who’s never been here before and how can I do it in a moment? And that’s it. I mean, do you know all of the sounds that are in there? I just named most of them, but.
Tiffany
- I mean, I think so. If I had to sit and write them out. Yeah. You just said a guy coughing siren, Vespa bells. Is there a click clack of someone walking?
Katy
And then there is also obviously, the sound of the fountain that starts it off. And there’s the squeaking sound that some people aren’t sure what it is. It’s the sound of starlings because Rome gets invaded by huge flocks of starlings at a certain time of year. And so I felt like they were a very iconic sound. So there is the screech of starlings.
Tiffany
I don’t know that I knew that.
Katy
Yeah. And then. And then I think that’s all. There’s no coffee, which I don’t think of as an iconic sound, even though it’s an iconic thing in Rome. And I think there is one iconic sound that is definitely not in here because it’s not original to the city. And I. And that is the sound of suitcases being pulled along cobblestones. That’s a sound you hear all the time. But I did not put it into the opening montage. And I. Quite honestly, Tiffany, I do not remember where the theme song came from.
Tiffany
Yeah, I think it was one of the street performers.
Katy
I don’t remember. I mean, I know I went through lots of different music to try to figure out, like, what should the theme be? And I’ve had people ask me before, what is the name of the song that is the. I have no clue. No idea. So if anybody knows, let me know. I think of it just as the theme of The Bittersweet Life. All right, let’s continue listening.
Original episode continues
Hello, I’m your host, Katy Sewall, along with Tiffany Parks, your other host.
Tiffany
It’s cold outside. It’s the first cold day of the year. We’re having tea, cheese, candlelight. It’s pretty nice.
Katy
It’s very romantic, overly so. In fact, we’re sitting up in my bed because it’s the only spot that’s not too echoey in the house. I’m Katy Sewall. I’m a public radio producer now living in Rome for the academic year until the end of June. And Tiffany I have known since I met her on the school bus. What, seventh grade?
Tiffany
Sixth grade.
Katy
Sixth grade. Can I sit here? And she said yes. And I was a pretty nerdy person, so that was a gift.
Tiffany
Well, it was the beginning of an amazing friendship, that’s for sure. When you’re 11 years old and you meet a soulmate. It’s a pretty rare thing.
Katy
Pretty rare. Yeah. And Tiffany’s actually been gone for a long time. How long have you been in Rome?
Tiffany
In Rome, over nine years. This is my 10th year.
Katy
Wow. I want to pause it there. Okay. So I hear a couple things in that opening, and I promise we won’t pause this much. I hear a couple things in that opening one. I think we are. I can still remember the stuff that I cut out of it. I can’t remember what we said, but I can remember cutting a lot of things out of it. And so for me, that sounds like a really tight edit. It’s missing certain elements. I still like how it sounds, but it’s definitely missing certain things that would make it a more conversational flow because I wanted to, like, get through the intro and get to the. What we were actually going to talk about. And of course, you just. You’re trying to figure out what the sound of it is, what the show is going to sound like. And so it was me experimenting. I still edit the show quite a bit, but I don’t think I ever edit it that tightly anymore.
Tiffany
Wow, that’s so interesting. I would never be able to recognize teachers.
Katy
Here’s a detail like me saying, we’re talking about meeting on the school bus in the sixth grade. I’m sure when I said, can I sit here? And she said yes, that I would have done some sort of lead into it. I got on the bus, you know, there must have been something that led up to, like, me just asking if I could sit with you. But instead I cut straight to me asking if I can sit with you. If that makes sense.
Tiffany
It does make sense.
Katy
Yeah. And then one other thing, I think. And you can tell me if you agree or not. I think you’re talking a little differently.
Tiffany
My voice sounds much younger.
Katy
Well, higher, too, in part. But the part of that can be like, you know how certain people talk when you talk to them on the phone? You’re like, who is this? This doesn’t sound like my friend. You know, they talk in, like, a higher octave or something like that. Or when they answer, how they sound on an answering machine, where you’re just like, this is not what their voice usually sounds like. They’re putting on something. And I feel like that might be the case. I don’t know that you sound younger, but you’re talking in a higher register than you usually do.
Tiffany
Possibly because, you know, I was trained as a classical singer. So if I was being. If I was very aware of my voice, as I would probably have been, considering it was the very first time I was being taped for a podcast. I probably was making an effort to speak in a resonant register, like, you know, and have my voice resonate at the front of my face rather than letting it slip down here into my. Into my chest.
Katy
Yeah, this is interesting. I just. I just noticed that when I was listening to you. Okay, here we go. We thought we would focus on what our lives are like living in Rome as two Seattleites living abroad Now, Tiffany, you’re practically from Rome at this point.
Tiffany
Well, I. Sometimes I do feel like Rome is more my home than anywhere else. But I definitely feel very American, even though I have a lot of Italian, new sort of Italian mentality. Nevertheless, I could never get away from my American roots, for sure, especially west coast American roots.
Katy
Where are the big differences? How can people still tell you’re an American even though you’ve been living in Italy so long?
Tiffany
Small ways. If it’s warm outside, even if it’s November, I generally won’t be wearing a winter coat and hat. Whereas an Italian. It doesn’t matter what the temperature is. They go by the calendar month. So if it’s November, they’re going to dress in a sk coat and a hat and gloves and huge scarf, even if it’s 70, 72 degrees outside. So that’s a small way.
Katy
Do you think you look different? I mean, obviously you’re aged.
Tiffany
I’m older than when I lived in Seattle, that’s for sure.
Katy
No, I wasn’t talking about that physically. But is there something about how you present yourself that they can tell that you’re not Italian?
Tiffany
When they see me, they generally know that I’m not Italian because of coloring, because of facial structure. Because Americans are so mixed as far as race, we have a different facial structure than Italians. Our faces are a little bit. I don’t know, softer in a way. And Italians, because they have so much. Or any, you know, European person who’s sort of always. All of their parents have always been from that same country. They have kind of stronger facial features. But I was going to say, despite being American, I do feel like I dress. I’m not going to say I dress like a complete European, but I definitely don’t dress like an American anymore. For example, I would not be caught dead wearing flip flops outside my house.
Katy
Oh, man.
Tiffany
So, Katy, now I’m curious. As someone who now has lived in Italy and has come regularly back to Italy and other European countries, do you Feel like the way you dress has changed in the past 10 years?
Katy
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. But I don’t know if it’s because I’ve traveled more to Italy, I think. I mean, one thing that really stands out is that when I was here 10 years ago, we were here on a fellowship. We were living on a stipend. I worked for public radio, which is not a place where people go to get wealthy. You know, sometimes people think of it as a public service. Of course, us doing it, or, like, a real paycheck would be nice, but we were on, like, such a thin margin, you know, So a lot of the things that. Not that I’ve dressed opulently now, but a lot of things I would have had then would have been, like, somehow secondhand, probably pretty old, just, you know, dealing with what I had. So I don’t know. I’ve tried, as I have purchased things in the years, subsequent years, I’ve tried to bring it into a more classical style that, you know, because both you and I, neither one of us love to go shopping for clothes. So I try to pick out things that I think will look fine five years from now if they’re still in decent condition. I think then it was probably a little bit more haphazard, what I was wearing. Do you remember me being haphazard? No.
Tiffany
Well, I mean, if you had flip flops and you were wearing them outside. Yeah, I don’t. Well, I don’t feel like you would do that anymore.
Katy
I mean, I packed flip flops. They’re sitting right over there. I’ll wear them for the house. No, I’d wear them outside still. Are you kidding me? Flip flops are great. I mean, they are hard to wear around Rome because Rome is, like, fully cobblestones and you’re walking so far. I probably wouldn’t wear them in Rome. But did I put them in here in case we’re, like, kicking around other parts of Italy? Sure, I’ll wear them. I’m an American. Why not? You know?
Tiffany
Okay.
Katy
All right. So, yes, I would say yes and no. Sometimes I have to rebel, Tiffany. It’s part of my personality, which. For which, from the rule that I can’t wear flip flops because they don’t want me to. All right, here we go. Well, to my credit, I broke my flip flops the first week I was here. So am I dressed like American right now?
Tiffany
Yeah. I mean, any top that has a zipper on it is generally going to be pretty American. I will say this. Things are changing, and the Italian Dress standards are becoming relaxed, especially in the South. In the north, if you go up to Milan, they’re still a little bit more dressy, but. But yeah, I mean, jeans, obviously, I’m wearing jeans too, so jeans. Very American. But more and more Italians wear them on a daily basis. Now.
Katy
What about fleece?
Tiffany
Oh, fleece doesn’t exist here. We don’t do fleece. We don’t do flannel.
Katy
See, I’m from Seattle, so we do comfort more than we do style. And I was actually very nervous moving here. Oh, my gosh, I’m gonna look like such a jerk.
Tiffany
No, definitely we are more casual in the States. But the typical thing you’ll see, which you do not look like this, so don’t worry. The typical thing is the American college student, generally about 20 years old, even if it’s the middle of winter, she’s wearing the same thing. She’s wearing flip flops, cut off shorts and a big university sweater. And her hair is pulled up. Not in a ponytail, not in a bun, instead of a halfway between the two. Like she couldn’t decide if she wanted her hair in a bun or a ponytail. And so that is what the American generally looks like during the day. And at night, she gets all dressed up, bright colors, cute little tank top, maybe some beading on it, short skirt, otherwise would look great. She makes one fatal mistake. Flip flops, ruins the whole outfit.
Katy
Just a quick aside. I mean, would you say, since we’re a decade later, would you say that is what the American expat student is still wearing here today?
Tiffany
You know, it’s hard for me to say because I don’t really go out at night in places where American expats are students.
Katy
You don’t see them as much anymore. So that’s a big change.
Tiffany
Yeah, I really don’t. I did see a bunch of American students last month when I was volunteering to register young voters at an American university. But I was. I was so busy with all the stuff I was doing, I didn’t really pay attention to their clothes.
Katy
But I would say.
Tiffany
I would say that the average American student in Rome has stepped it up a bit. Just a bit.
Katy
I would agree with that, from walking around, that they don’t have quite the. That’s why I wanted to comment on it, because it is interesting. Like 10 years have passed. The fashions have changed for sure. Oh, here we go back. All right, well, let’s. Let’s leave that for a moment and go back to how you ended up being here. You decide to Move. I don’t. You’ve told me before, but I don’t think you to go home. Even though your mother thought that perhaps you were just coming for a visit. Is that true?
Tiffany
I think my mother had an idea that I was going to move over here and start an international opera career, which was sort of the, you know, was my dream as a kid at least. And as a young adult, I really wanted to live in Rome. That was the point. You know, whatever excuse I came up with singing opera, as much as I loved singing opera, but that was really more at that point. Anyway, the excuse to get over here, it’s Italy is just in case you’re wondering, not a good place to try to kickstart an opera career. If you’re, if you’re interested in singing opera, stay in America or move to Germany, but don’t come to Italy. So I moved here in September of 2004.
Katy
And about what age were you?
Tiffany
I was in my mid, heading towards late 20s, I think I was 26 or 27. I didn’t plan to come back. I mean, I knew it could happen, anything could happen, but it wasn’t, oh, I’m going to come for three months or I’m going to come for a year. I’m going to see how I like it. That was not really an option. I didn’t give myself the option of coming back.
Katy
See, and as a friend of yours, I thought. We assumed you were coming back, that this was a temporary thing. Oh, Tiffany’s going to live in Rome for a few years and then she’ll be back. And I can still vividly remember you coming to visit at one point. And I don’t know if you sat down and had a talk with me, but when I think back of my head, that’s how I picture it in my mind, which is surely not accurate, but I picture you just being like, I have to let you guys know that I’m never. I’m never coming back.
Tiffany
I don’t remember this conversation at all.
Katy
It may not have happened.
Tiffany
Maybe it was a dream.
Tiffany
Okay, so I still, I still don’t recall that conversation.
Katy
That’s fair. I mean, like I said in the, in the thing, it probably didn’t happen that way.
Tiffany
Yeah, I mean, I can.
Katy
Maybe it just hit me that way. I woke up in the middle of the night after I’ve been hanging out with you, and I’m like, wait a minute, is she never coming back? Maybe something like that happened more.
Tiffany
Maybe. Or maybe it was an off the cuff remark.
Katy
Yeah, I Don’t think I’m coming back. I don’t think I’m gonna come back. That’s probably what it was like.
Tiffany
It just came up in conversation like, no, I’m not coming back. It’s not in the plan anyway.
Katy
We’re like, well, at least get your friend Katy, who hadn’t been, like, hardly anywhere at that point, was like, what do you mean you’re not coming back? You got to come back. Like, that’s part of what going off and to college and exploring. And you come back. That’s what you do. That’s what you do. You come back. That’s where I probably mentally were at that point. Okay, Going back into the show.
Tiffany
I don’t remember this conversation at all.
Katy
It may not have happened.
Tiffany
Maybe it was a dream, I don’t know.
Katy
But I just remember that you saying, I’m never coming back.
Tiffany
- Who knows? You never know where life is gonna lead you. But I definitely didn’t ever think that I would come back, at least not unless I had a very good reason, like some dream job or something like that.
Katy
Well, and did you love it right away?
Tiffany
No. The first year here was hell. They spent the first two weeks living with these relatives, and they turned out to be pretty horrible people, particularly the mother of the family, the mother and the son.
Katy
Horrible how? What’s your unpleasant experience?
Tiffany
Well, it was actually heartbreaking for me because they were really. I thought that they were really wonderful people. And I had known, you know, I’d met them several times. I’d stayed with them. I’d been, you know, I’d sung in their daughter’s wedding. And then I came, you know, I moved here. And to Americans, you know, we think, oh, you know, you’re going to have an experience abroad. Move to France, move to Japan, move to, you know, Brazil. Go for it. Do it. It sounds exciting. Italians don’t really think that way. You would move to a foreign country like America or Australia or England to further your career. But why would you move to a country that, in their minds, would be kind of taking a step backwards? They couldn’t figure out why I wanted to be there. It was completely strange for them. But that’s not what made them horrible. What was horrible was the father of the family, who was older than my own father, so he was in his 70s. He started hitting on me pretty strongly. The mother realized this before I did, really, because I just thought he was being friendly. And she started being horribly mean to me because of it. And the son, I don’t know what his problem was. So I felt completely alone. I didn’t want to live with them. Maybe they thought I did. Maybe they thought I was going to move in and, you know, live off of them permanently. And maybe that’s why the mother was freaked out. That’s not. That was not my plan. I just wanted to be there for a few weeks so I could get my feet on the ground, find an apartment. And even though I was only there two weeks, it quickly turned into hell. Absolutely miserable. I was crying every day. Couldn’t help it, couldn’t stop myself. I was afraid that. I was afraid of many things. I was afraid I wouldn’t be able to find a job. I was afraid I wouldn’t make any friends. I wouldn’t be able to hack it. And I would have to go back home a failure, not even having been able to start any kind of a new life for myself. And remember, this was back before Facebook, before expat groups that I know of. So I had no resources. I didn’t know how to meet people. I didn’t know, you know, I didn’t really have any way to make friends at first.
Katy
Well, and you didn’t have a visa, how were you expecting to work?
Tiffany
Well, things have changed in Italy and they’re a bit harder. Follow the law a little bit more closely now. But back in 2004, if you were from a first world country, particularly an English speaking country, it was pretty easy to work under the table, you know, obviously not if you were going to try to have some important career, you know, but if you were content to be a nanny, an English teacher, a waitress, or even a yoga teacher, which is what I did. You didn’t need any kind of papers, you didn’t need any documents. Even if you were stopped by the police in some situation and you didn’t have any documents, if you were from America or Canada, Australia, they were. They would just look the other way. They didn’t really care. But things have changed now, which is.
Katy
Why I don’t have a job.
Tiffany
Well, but you’re also at a different stage in your life.
Katy
That’s true. I wasn’t trying to get a job.
Tiffany
Yeah, and you are. You are overqualified for the kinds of jobs that I was taking.
Katy
You’re never overqualified. If I was to become an English teacher or nanny, I wouldn’t know what I was doing.
Tiffany
That’s true. But I want to hear about what your first week here was like or your first impressions, although it wasn’t that long ago.
Katy
Oh, what Is it two and a half months? Two and a half months. Now I’m starting to fear that it’s going to end too soon.
Tiffany
I think. I think it will. I already feel like it’s. It’s going too fast, and I’m already missing you when you’re still here.
Katy
Don’t do that. Well, I’m here through June. All right, I’m going to pause it there, just. Just to confirm what we were speculating about at the beginning, that we think that we put the first episode out in March, but it’s pretty clear now that I’ve said that, that we’re. And because you were talking about how cold it is, that we’re talking about November.
Tiffany
Yeah. And I said, this is the first cold day. And I said, also, you. Even if it’s November, people are wearing their puffy coats. So it was clearly November that we started taping.
Katy
Yeah. It’s interesting. I wonder what the holdup was. I mean, I guess it’s boring to speculate about, but I also want to remind people that it’s interesting to hear you talking about. There’s no Facebook when you get here. It’s hard to make friends. When we started this podcast, it was a lot harder to get a podcast on all of the podcast servers. Now you can upload your podcast to something like a service like podcatcher or Libsyn or. I don’t even know all the names of every thing that you can upload your podcast to. And it just shoots it out to everything. It shoots to Apple Music, it shoots it to Spotify. Back in this day, you had to figure out how to get it onto every platform. Heaven forbid, you wanted, like, any data about your listenership, because then you had to run it through this other special program. For me, as a person who came from, like, the artistic side of radio, not the technical side of radio, this was a real head scratcher for me. And I had lots of different people trying to help me figure out, like, how to get it into the various places and sync it so it’s there on the right time in the same day. And I mean, it was for me. I can’t say it would be for everybody. For me, at 10 plus years ago, it was kind of a nightmare to figure out how to get this show into the public in all of the places. And so I’m sure that was part of the holdup.
Tiffany
That’s probably why it took so long. And it’s incredible how many. Italy, Lifestyle, Italy, Expat Life Italy, Art Italy, Food, Italy, Podcasts are out there right now. It’s like there’s billions. I mean, not billions, but there’s a lot. And I feel like when we started, maybe there was like some history podcasts about Italy, but we were pretty much the only one doing what could be described as sort of an Italy lifestyle podcast.
Katy
I feel, I don’t know that if that’s true or not, but it’s possible.
Tiffany
Yeah, I mean, it’s just, I feel like it was the same thing with blogging, right? You know, there were those people who like start blogging when like blogs were brand new and it was like, what is this? And then all of a sudden poor it explodes.
Katy
And well, I mean, think about the title in itself. The Bittersweet Life. It’s a good title. How many people have probably thought to do something like that as their title in years prior? And we have that title years prior or years after. Sorry, in years after this.
Tiffany
Yeah, well, yeah, hands off, Hands off. That brilliant title that we got.
Katy
But it’s sort of like the first guy that bought like www.McDonald’s.com or something and made a fortune. Well, obviously we’re not going to make a fortune on this, but an early adopter. But that’s not to say that we were actually early adopters. I mean, there were podcasts long before us, you know, otherwise, I mean, long, long before us. We were not on the first cusp. But I am just saying it was more complicated. But anyway, I didn’t mean to go on that massive digression. I wanted to say it’s obviously November. All right, back to the show. Don’t do that. Well, I’m here through June or she.
Tiffany
Might just never go away like me.
Katy
I’m just telling people I’m here through June. No, I am planning on leaving, but who knows? Like you said, life can go any which way, right? And I came under those tag along circumstances you were talking about. My husband Derek got a fellowship to study and then the big decision was do I quit my job that I’ve had for 10 years working in public radio and go and spend a year doing next to nothing in Italy? Or do we just say, and it helped that you were here for me, I think personally, but ultimately decided that it was something we couldn’t pass up because it was a once in a lifetime opportunity and we have no kids and just one fish that went to a happy home. You know, nothing really tying us into the city we were in. Except for my job, which I loved and was incredibly sad to leave. But so Here we are.
Tiffany
Okay, random question. You don’t have to.
Katy
Popping back in.
Tiffany
If you had had this opportunity and you had the two cats, would you have gone?
Katy
Yeah, because I now have Mr. Ding Dong and Mr. Shandong. That’s tricky. I mean, I guess the question would have been, do you bring the two cats?
Tiffany
Well, yeah, you can bring. I mean, we, you know, we know that now because we’ve talked to some people who’ve done it.
Katy
Yeah. I mean, yeah. Bre Ripley, who was a guest of ours and who’s going to be a guest of ours in weeks to come, giving us an update on how her unexpected life in Rome is going, did manage to get her two cats over here. I mean, it would be. That’s a good question. We would have had to figure out how to get them here because they definitely are more of a factor than that fish, which, by the way, I will report, passed away while I was gone. And let me tell you this weird fact. Not only did I pass. Maybe I’m going to talk about this. I have no idea. Coming up in the show, I. Not only did I pass that fish off to the last man I interviewed before I left npr, and I don’t know how we got to talking about it or why he accepted this fish, but he did. He was an animal eye surgeon. Not only did he accept the fish and take care of it, when the fish died, he froze it in his freezer just in case I wanted to reclaim the body. When I came back, talk about going above and beyond. And he wrote to me and he’s like, yeah, I’m so sorry to report. I mean, I never expected to see that fish again. When I gave that man the fish, you know, I. I don’t know where he got the impression, like, save this. Keep it alive for me. I mean, what pressure that poor person was under. Anyway, he wrote to me and he said, I’m sorry to report that the fish has passed away, but we’ve kept it in the freezer. And I’m like, you don’t got to keep it in the freezer. I mean, I like the fish, but, you know, you can bury it or do whatever you want to do, like, because he had little kids. So, anyway, I never did reclaim the body of my fish.
Tiffany
That is hilarious.
Katy
All right. Going back at first, it was just amazing. I was one of those people that never thought. I never thought I was going to even leave the United States, you know, to travel. I know, right? Even to travel. This is going way back. And thankfully, I evolved by my early 20s. But I remember being 18 and thinking, I love it here. I love America. I love my friends. I love this. I’m happy here. I never need to go anywhere else. This is good. Geez, what a sad life that would have been. Well, yes.
Tiffany
So, I mean, it is a pretty amazing place when you think about, you know, at least what the opportunities that you have living away from it, you. You realize especially sort of ease of doing things, how easy it is. I mean, now, you know, because of all the bureaucratic headaches you’ve had to go through. But in America, things are so easy, and here things are very hard.
Katy
Going from thinking I wouldn’t leave the country to. Actually, I left the country a lot when I was a younger person, but I always went to Southeast Asia. And I had been to Rome once for your wedding two years ago. Two plus years ago now, right? Two and a half years ago. Wow. Okay. And I loved Rome then. We had a great time. So I at least kind of knew what I was coming back to. And we also had just. In those brief 10 days or two weeks that we were here for your wedding, we’d created certain rituals in the city already. There were restaurants that had become favorite restaurants, and so it felt like at least you were going somewhere where you had some kind of anchor. But I also had that worry that when I had walked away from everything and I’d said goodbye to my job and I’d said goodbye to my parents who live in the same city as me and all my friends and all this stuff that on the flight over, I had this picture of myself just being like, what am I doing on the flight over? And that wasn’t the case at all. On the flight over, I was so excited to actually be leaving. And that has not been the case for me in other travels. I moved briefly to New York City to do an internship. And I was miserable there, you know, because I’d never. I was like, what am I doing here? I left a great job. I’m in the middle of nowhere. I don’t know anybody. And I did know people. I mean, that was just me being like, oh, I just don’t know anybody.
Tiffany
I do have to say that I’ve heard. I’ve never lived in New York myself, but I’ve heard from people that do that you do not start to like it there until you’ve lived there, like, three or four years. It’s hard to live in New York. It’s not just because it was a different place. It was because it was in New York.
Katy
But I definitely add that I’m on my own because, you know, when you work your whole adult life, where you essentially grew up, even though I’m from central Minnesota as a kid, but then I moved to Seattle and I’ve been there. With the exception of leaving for college and coming back, I’ve been there. So when I went to New York for that little brief period of time, it was really the first time I’d ever moved away and was out on my own, alone in a city. And thank God I went through that experience because I feel like that got it all out, you know, that weird insecurity that you have when you’re on your own for the first time. And then when I got here, oh, man. In some ways, it’s such a relief to be somewhere different and to not have all those expectations of being at home. So that has nothing to do with Rome, right?
Tiffany
Breaking back in, it’s funny that you say, well, that has nothing to do with Rome. And that kind of comment and that kind of insight that you were just coming to and realizing in that moment is so much more what our show is about now.
Katy
That’s so true, because we were trying to. Have we even introduced what the focus of this episode is yet? I mean, like, what is the theme? I mean, obviously it’s episode one. You need to get to know who the heck you’re gonna be traveling down the road with and whether or not you want to go on this journey with those people. But I mean, have we even introduced a theme yet? I’m saying, but that’s not about Rome. Were we talking. I mean, were we talking about Rome?
Tiffany
Not really. Not really. But yeah, I think that’s. That feels much more like a topic that we would explore today.
Katy
Yeah, that’s true.
Tiffany
Like, is it easier to be at a place where no one knows you and where you just. There’s no expectations on you, which is something incredible that expats get to get to enjoy.
Katy
Yeah. And. Or I think anybody. I mean, I think a lot of people feel the same way if they retire or if they leave a particular job where the job. You know, you have so much responsibility. I had tons of responsibility at that time for the daily production of a two hour, very prominent show. And so to all of a sudden be. You know, nobody’s looking at their watch at 7:32 and being like, where’s Katy? Was an odd experience, you know, to be this so free of things. I think I’ve heard that from people who retire too, where you wake up the first morning, and you’re like, huh? Don’t I usually have to. Don’t I have to be somewhere? I guess I don’t have to be anywhere ever for the rest of my life. Like, how is that possible? And the expat experience is a little bit like that at first.
Tiffany
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Katy
All right, ready? So that has nothing to do with Rome. That’s all to do with me. But first impressions on being here was that I was exhausted from the travel, couldn’t stay up during the day, and I was living right next to Piazza Navona in a temporary apartment. Piazza Navona is probably one of the most beautiful places in the entire world. And I was up at 3 in the morning, and Derek, my husband, was up too, because I was up. And we decided that we were going to go out and take a walk, and we walked out to Piazza Navona, and all the lights are on in the fountains and the church is all lit up and there’s nobody there. And that was the quintessential moment of coming to Rome. Here I am in one of the world’s most famous, most beautiful squares, alone at 4 in the morning. This is an incredible experience.
Tiffany
You can’t beat Rome for beauty. I don’t think there’s any place in the world. Maybe some people would say Paris, but I don’t think that there’s any city that has as many beautiful angles and corners that Rome has. So that helps, especially if, you know, if you’re feeling homesick.
Katy
Is beauty enough. I’m in a different mental state because as far as I’m concerned, I’m leaving. Let me pause it there for a second because now we’re actually about to introduce what the show is actually about. Do you still agree 10, 20 years of living in Rome now that Rome is one of the most beautiful places on Earth?
Tiffany
Yeah, I agree. More so now because I’ve seen more of it, and I know that sounds weird. I’d already been living in Rome for 10 years, but I have seen so many more places in Rome than I had now that I hadn’t seen 10 years ago. You just keep digging deeper and keep digging deeper.
Katy
What about the surface level stuff? Because, you know, part of walking around Rome and for people who have never been here before, one thing you quickly discover upon arrival is transit strikes, garbage strikes. A lot more graffiti now than there was 10 years ago when we were recording this, probably even less when you were here 20 years ago. That kind of grittiness about it. How do you put that Together as far as the. The love and the beauty.
Tiffany
Well, you just. You just kind of threw that question out there on the tape. Is beauty enough? I just love those words. I love how they sound together. And I think we did a whole episode called.
Katy
No, that’s what this episode is. This is the theme of the episode. We’re getting to it at 15 minutes in.
Tiffany
That’s so funny, Katy. I totally forgot that I thought that we did an episode years later called Is Beauty Enough. I didn’t realize that that was this episode.
Katy
It’s the pilot episode. That’s the theme of the pilot episode is beauty Enough.
Tiffany
I love that.
Katy
Oh, it’s just very bittersweet life topic, isn’t it? To have it be that instead.
Tiffany
It’s so hard to say. I think it’s personal. I think it depends. It depends how much beauty is important to you personally and how much it weighs against ease of life. I think it matters. Depends on where you are in your life. Like, are you in a moment in your life in which you really need things to run smoothly? I remember when Aurelia was a baby and, you know, oh, my God, it was such a hassle that getting around and not having anywhere to, you know, maneuver the baby carriage, not having anywhere to park. It just. It was hard that. That moment or, you know, or when I was commuting every day and I was going back and forth from my neighborhood in the outskirts of Rome, and I was fighting traffic every day, and I was never seeing the beauty of Rome. I was only seeing my neighborhood or the area where my job was, which wasn’t bad. But it wasn’t the beauty that, you know, that drew me to Rome. And so I think it’s so personal whether beauty is enough and what point you are in your life. It’s an impossible question.
Katy
I mean, I have no idea what we’re about to say. Yeah, but I like your answer, that it’s getting even more beautiful for you. Okay, here we go. Is beauty enough? I’m in a different mental state because as far as I’m concerned, I’m leaving and you’re staying. So how do you get through those first two weeks and beauty is not enough? Or maybe it is enough.
Tiffany
Honestly, sometimes I ask myself, why? Why am I still here? And obviously now I’m married to an Italian.
Katy
That helps.
Tiffany
That does help. But that. That’s only. I want to make it clear that I didn’t meet my husband until I’d already lived here for four years, until I was very grounded here already. And Felt like Rome was my home. So I definitely didn’t stay for him. On the contrary, he would like to go and live in America. And I am terrified of that idea.
Katy
Terrified, why?
Tiffany
Because, first of all, because I feel like I already started my life over once when I came here and I started from zero. And I feel like going back to the states after 10 years away would be like starting over from zero again. I wouldn’t be quite as hard because I’d be a citizen. I would speak the language perfectly, I would know people. But still, career wise, I mean, I would basically be starting from zero, but also terrified because I feel like Rome is a bigger part of my life than normally. What someone’s city is so much of what inspires me in my work. And when you say beauty is beauty enough, actually it’s very interesting because I had to ask myself, what is it that really is stopping me? What is it that really makes me want to live here? Because there are so many hard things about living here. Difficult things that don’t come up when you’re here for a vacation don’t even come up always when you’re here for a year. There’s a lot of things coming up now that didn’t come up until I got married, became a legal resident and saw what Italians have to face here. And so there are a lot of things that make me think I don’t want to be here forever and especially don’t want to raise my children here, or at least have them become adults here. And so I think, well, what is it that scares me so much about moving back to the States and scares me about leaving Rome? And sometimes I think, as superficial as it sounds, it’s because I can’t stand to not be able to see the things and experience the things that I see and experience every day. The beauty everywhere around me, also the charmingness of it. The characteristic picturesque corners and angles and, you know, the butcher and the, you know, the baker and the little.
Katy
The cheese man.
Tiffany
The cheese man. The little things. The little European things that you would think after 10 years I would. I would gotten over by now, but I’m really not over them. It’s an interesting question. I don’t know. It’s not. I’m not going to say that just beauty is enough, but it’s. For me, it’s very. It’s very important.
Katy
Just for me being here only two and a half months, which I’m sure a lot of people have toured to Rome. So this is not an experience people don’t understand They’ve seen come and they’ve seen the beauty in many cases. But for me, it really highlights how poorly put together America is. A lot of the time we have buildings that are beautiful, but we have a lot of buildings that aren’t beautiful and weren’t meant to be beautiful ever when they were made. Beautiful, historic city centers. And then you drive for 10 minutes and you’re in another. You could be anywhere in America. There’s the McDonald’s, there’s the Walmart, there’s the big box stores. We’re just so run by corporations that you can have a beautiful downtown Charleston and then get a little farther out. And all of a sudden you could be in the outskirts of Denver, you could be in the outskirts of Seattle, you could be in the outskirts of Minnesota. Wherever, wherever. It’s becoming so uniform by these corporations. And being somewhere in Rome, it seems like most things when they were built, were built to impress people. This church making a statement about who they were, or this king making. Not king, but noble, making a statement about who they were. And so the city’s full of beauty. When you’re living in a society that’s run by profit, that’s not necessarily the case. And that’s been very highlighted to me wandering around this place because there is. There are some ugly buildings in Rome, but most of it is interspersed with great beauty everywhere.
Tiffany
Yeah. And also the history. It’s beauty and history. You walk around and you see different eras so clearly. You can see medieval buildings, you can see Renaissance buildings, you can see ancient ruins. It’s hard not to appreciate it.
Katy
Do you have any idea where you would move if you actually were to go back to America? Not that you’re going to.
Tiffany
Not that I’m going to.
Katy
Would you head home back to the Seattle area?
Tiffany
As much as I think about Seattle a lot, I have no family there anymore. It would almost be like moving to any other city in the sense that I don’t have a home base there. My parents don’t live anywhere where I really like to be, to be honest. So I wouldn’t move to either where they are, which is Arizona and Idaho respectively. The idea of New York is, for many reasons we talked about a moment ago is terrifying to me. Although as a child, as a little child, I always dreamed of living in New York. That was where I wanted to end up. But I can’t picture it at this point in time. I can’t picture myself living in New York. I feel like I’m. I’m not tough enough to live In New York, if that makes sense.
Katy
Which seems crazy to me as a person who knows you, who saw you be very brave and leaving the States and coming here, just pausing really quick, quick aside. I think this is wrong. I think that you are tough enough to live in New York. I think your perception of New York is you have to be pretty tough to live in Rome also. And I think that your perception here is wrong. I think you’re tough enough to live in New York. What I don’t think that you would like is the rhythm of life in New York. You know, the kind of the on flow and off flow of the subway, the people walking in every direction. That’s the same here, but they walk in a different way.
Tiffany
Yeah, you got a lot of people getting on and off the subway, but once you’re off the subway, you’re walking slower. I do love the slower pace of the city. I love the.
Katy
You mean in Rome? Sorry.
Tiffany
Yes, in Rome. I love the slower pace of the city, which, if you come to Rome from the countryside of Italy or even a smaller town, people think Rome is like, oh, my God, it’s so frenetic. So it’s all gradations. But. But I love the general, more Italian, slower lifestyle. So, yeah, I think, I think I. At this point in my life now I’m a little bit older, I could almost guarantee you I will never live in New York.
Katy
Yes, I think that’s fair to say for both of us. But I disagree with your assessment that you would not be tough enough to live in New York. Here we go. Leaving the States and coming here. For me, as a conservative, hang home near your folks kind of person, stick with the familiar. I thought that that was so bold and so brave.
Tiffany
Well, thank you. I guess it was.
Katy
Rome’s a huge city too.
Tiffany
Rome is a huge city, but it’s kind of slow city. You can do things slowly. I feel like New York. Whenever I go to New York, I feel like I’m going to be run over on the sidewalk because I’m not walking fast enough and I’m not doing things fast enough. I’m not really a workaholic. Maybe that’s Italy. Maybe that’s Italy has done that to.
Katy
Me, but I’m not anymore.
Tiffany
See, two months in Italy and I.
Katy
Can barely get out of bed in the morning.
Tiffany
You lose all ambition. You have to. Because Rome will just crush it up.
Katy
Because you can’t get anything done here.
Tiffany
Exactly. But no, I find it. I find it overwhelming. I find New York overwhelming and I find it Intimidating. I feel like it’s the kind of city where you can really only live well if you have a lot of money. And that’s one of the things I love about Italy, is that you can live really well on not a lot of money. Very unlikely you’re going to have a lot of money. So it’s better that way. You can eat well without a lot of money. You can have fun. There’s a lot of things to do that are free or very inexpensive. And so that’s one great thing about Rome.
Katy
Maybe we should talk about what you do. What do you do, Tiffany? What do you do in Rome now?
Tiffany
I do many things, but the most, the thing that I spend most of my time doing is writing. I am the editor of Where Rome magazine, which is a tourist based magazine. It’s an international magazine. They have it in many, many different cities. I write for that magazine and edit it and I also write a blog. I also am writing my first novel. I mean the editing process and I.
Katy
Do tours very well, by the way, I should add.
Tiffany
Thank you.
Katy
Yes, you’re a writer. But obviously, as you kind of alluded to, the salaries in Italy are pretty low, at least now. Has it gotten worse?
Tiffany
I don’t think it’s gotten worse. I think that definitely the salaries have not kept up with inflation though. So in that sense it’s gotten worse. I don’t think the salaries have maybe gone down. You know, it’s bad, it’s bad. There’s very few people are getting steady contracts. Young people, particularly the generation beneath us, people in their 20s are having a very hard time. They’re not getting jobs for their qualifications, they’re getting taken advantage of by their employers. And so it’s very difficult. Plus one thing that is expensive in Rome, I have to admit, is housing.
Tiffany
Busting in to say this has not changed. And in fact my sister in law, who is a recent college graduate, who is just absolutely, you know, incredibly smart, incredibly good grades and top scores on her exams, and speaks numerous languages. She, she’s actually just starting her master’s and so she’s not completely out in the workforce yet. But she’s like, I need to get a job. And she’s doing her master’s online, so she has a bit of time. So she applied around and she got a job which is technically, they call it an internship. I think that that is an excuse to pay her nothing because I mean, I don’t know, she’s just started, it’s like week one, but she’s working at A hotel and she’s doing reception. She’s working 40 hours a week and that’s divided over six days. So she has only one day off. It’s a very long commute for her. And she’s also doing different shifts. So it’s not like a nine to five thing. Sometimes she’s working until 11:00 at night, which technically, if it were a job job, she’d be. That would be reflected in her salary. She’d make a little bit more and she has to work on Sundays. That as well would be reflected in her salary. And it’s not, of course, and she is being paid. Drumroll please. A grand total of, after taxes, €800amonth. Yeah, I mean, you can’t live on that. You can’t live on that in Rome. So she of course still lives with her parents and I think that that’s kind of the way that they get away with it. First they say, okay, it’s an internship. And since she said when she accepted it it was supposed to be for two months and then, you know, there’d be the option of renewing at a normal contract. And now they’re saying six months, first day. And actually it’s six months. Okay, you didn’t tell me that before. But it’s very hard work. It’s very physically demanding work. She’s on her feet all day and it’s not even €5 an hour after taxes. And I think that, you know, back in the day in the States, I don’t know if you know this, Katy, but they used to pay women, I mean, they still pay women less, but women used to pay be paid significantly less money than men in the 50s and 60s when they were, you know, working as secretaries and such. And one of the excuses that employ employers gave was, well, your husband makes the money so you’re, you’re okay, you don’t need to make as much money. And I feel like it’s the same mentality, you know, you’re living with your parents, you don’t need any more money than this, which is just so ridiculous.
Katy
Yeah. Wow. Okay. Wow. Crazy. Here we go.
Tiffany
One thing that is expensive in Rome, I have to admit, is housing. So the difference between the price of an apartment and the salary in Rome is a big problem. You know, it’s very difficult. That’s why most people live with their.
Katy
Parents, which also keeps you expecting too much in some ways. If your parents live in a very nice house and you had the experience of moving out of your parents house and probably living In a pretty crappy apartment at some point. I used to have an apartment that had so much mold in the bathroom that the tile was starting to fall off the wall. And talk to the landlord about it and he’s like, it’s okay, it’s fine. But we’ve had this experience of living in kind of crappy areas. Not ideal, not having everything that we want to have yet working our way up. And you were telling me that that’s a problem with Italian young people.
Tiffany
Yeah, they don’t go through that step. They don’t. It’s one thing to live like that when you’re in your early 20s and you expect that it’s normal and you kind of almost enjoy it in a sense. Like you’re proud of the fact that, you know, you could wash the dishes when you’re sitting in bed. But when you’re 35 and you have a sociology degree and you speak three or four languages fluently, and you are basically a glorified intern because you work full time, but you get paid what an intern would get paid, you don’t want to go through that anymore. You’re at the age when you want to get married, maybe, and you might want to have children. What I’m trying to say is if you don’t go through, if you don’t leave home at 18 or 21 and go through that and start working your way up, you’re not going to be able to deal with it at 35. So what happens is Italians don’t leave home at 18 or 21 and they don’t finish their university degree very quickly. They probably stay in University for eight, 10 years even. They don’t have the same need to get a job that an American would have. An American, their parents kicked them out. They’re like, you’re on your own. You’re 18 or you’re 21, you’re on your own. So they have to do that. An Italian doesn’t. An Italian is going to be coddled by their parents and they’re going to be able to live at home until whenever they decide to leave, their parents will never kick them out. So the problem is they don’t have the job history that a 35 year old American would have because they haven’t been working since they were 18, because they haven’t had to.
Katy
I should ask you, since we are two Americans in Rome talking about Italians, how accurate do you think you are about Italians?
Tiffany
I definitely am fallible for sure, because I’m not Italian, because I could just.
Katy
Hear the people being like, well, I don’t see why they would be judging so much.
Tiffany
Well, I can be very judgy on Italians. I have to admit. I have to stop myself sometimes. It depends on who I’m talking to. If I’m talking to Americans, I’m very judgy on Italians. If I’m talking to Italians, I’m very judgy on Americans. I don’t mean to, but it just. It just comes out. But I have had a lot of experience with Italian families. I see my husband’s family. I have a few Italian friends. I say a few. Even after 10 years, it’s not that easy to make friends with Italians, especially the girls.
Katy
Really? Why is that?
Tiffany
Well, because they tend to sort of have a pack mentality. You know, you make friends in high school or even younger, and those are your friends for life. Italians don’t generally move around very much. The people you know who are in Rome have been living in Rome their entire lives. And their friends are friends they’ve had since they were 11 or 14. This is, again, I’m generalizing. So there are exceptions, but most Italians probably feel I don’t need to make any more friends. I have my friends. These are my real friends, which is a great thing to have friends that long as obviously we know. Yes, I’ve been in situations where, you know, you try to make friends with Italians and they just not really that interested, unless it’s a guy. And then they really want to be your friend. Well, not exactly your friend, but they want to get to know you.
Katy
But you do have a couple after all this? I have a few.
Tiffany
I have a very few. And they’re. And they’re really sort of different from, I hate to say, the typical Italian girl.
Katy
How so?
Tiffany
My friend Cecilia is very interested in art and history. In fact, we met taking a. A class on Roman history and Roman art. And she always wants to go out and do cultural activities and things like that. Where I feel like the typical Italian her age would be more interested in going shopping or hanging out gossiping with her friends. And she. And she always, you know, is interested in meeting new people and meeting foreigners. That’s the thing. Foreigners, a dreaded foreigner. It’s. It’s not super great to be a foreigner in Italy. Were seen as outsiders.
Katy
So what does that mean for your husband, Claudio, when he married a foreigner, did that change his reputation with his friends or the way that other locals in your neighborhood are going to view him?
Tiffany
I think definitely it changed, but not necessarily in a bad way. I hate to say it, but this is the reality, is that foreigners from first world and particularly English speaking countries are seen. Even though we’re seen as outsiders, and even though we’re not necessarily trusted in the same way an Italian would be, we’re still seen as people who are going to benefit society. There’s another class of foreigner that unfortunately is very marginalized in Italy. People from outside of Europe, but also people from Eastern Europe or from Romania, Bulgaria, that sort of area. And it would have been very different if he had married. Unfortunately. I mean, it shouldn’t be this way. But if he had married an Albanian woman or a Moroccan woman, that would have been a scandal. By marrying an American woman, it’s almost like, wow, you can go live in America now. So he’s actually.
Katy
Score, score.
Tiffany
Exactly. That’s why I think that’s why he married me.
Katy
I hope that’s not the only reason why he married you.
Tiffany
No, because what he doesn’t know is that he can’t get a green card unless I sponsor him.
Katy
That’s right. And you don’t want to go back, so. Exactly.
Tiffany
No. But I think that. I don’t know. This is just my guess, but I think it might give him a little air of almost sophistication by having a foreign wife from America, not just from any country, but from America. Because as much as Italians, you know, might criticize Americans, Italians have always had a fascination with America, just like America has had with Italy. It’s kind of a mutual fascination. Jumping in real quick, I do have.
Tiffany
To say, I think that. I think that Italians have evolved a.
Tiffany
Little bit over the. On this.
Katy
Okay. All right.
Tiffany
I think that it’s hard to say. It’s hard to say, but I’d like to think that generally speaking, Italians are a little bit less judgy on immigrants than they used to be. Particularly Eastern European immigrants, I feel like, are more accepted now, are more. They’re not so distrusted as they were at one time.
Katy
That’s good progress. I like it. All right. Rounding the corner into the end, it’s.
Tiffany
Kind of a mutual fascination.
Katy
We should ask him about it tonight. And then next time we get together to do one of these podcasts, we’ll find out what it’s actually added to his life or detracted.
Tiffany
I will definitely ask him tonight. He’s actually cooking for me tonight, so that’s something that maybe has.
Tiffany
What was that the first time? Only time he cooked for me that.
Katy
You were still early days, I guess.
Tiffany
So we’d been married if it was November of I said two and a half years. I remember he did make pasta with lentils once. Maybe that was the night.
Katy
This is pre child. Do you think this was the pasta and lentil night?
Tiffany
I think so. I only remember one time.
Katy
So this was a notable occasion on many for many reasons. Wasn’t just the first show. It was pasta and lentil night. All right, here we go.
Tiffany
Looking for me tonight? So that’s something that maybe has. If he had an Italian wife, I don’t necessarily think that he would have to cook dinner ever.
Katy
Or do laundry.
Tiffany
Or do laundry. I will be honest. I cook and do laundry more than he does. But he does do it sometimes, which is a step in the right direction.
Katy
All right, well, we have to leave it there. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
Join us again. We welcome your questions and your feedback. Reach the show by emailing bittersweetlifepodcast@gmail.com. Join us again. Bye.
Tiffany
You wrapped that up in a jiffy.
Katy
Why did I wrap it up? I mean I think timing wise it’s a good wrap up because it leaves you wanting more.
Tiffany
It’s like 30 minutes even.
Katy
So I was going for the half an hour show length for sure. But I mean that’s after editing so who knows how long we actually recorded for. All right, let’s give our final review. And of course if you are interested in weighing in on this, how do you think the first episode stands up to time? You can always email us. Our email address is bittersweetlifepodcast@gmail.com. That’s bittersweetlifepodcast@gmail.com. You can also talk to us on Instagram or on Facebook. Just look for The Bittersweet Life. Let us know how you feel about the first episode. Maybe you heard this back in the day. Maybe you heard it for the first time right now. Let us know how you think it stands up to the test of time. But Tiffany, I’m going to turn it over to you. How do you think it stands up to the test of time?
Tiffany
I think it stands up pretty well. Yeah.
Katy
I mean good laugh lines. There were some funny parts for sure.
Tiffany
Uh huh.
Katy
I think you got to know us pretty well. It was a decent introduction on who we were as people and. But it wasn’t just about us.
Tiffany
Yeah. It reminds me though that for the first several episodes we did not start recording with a topic in mind.
Katy
No, we did. I remember talking about this. I Remember talking about. I mean, we barely spend any time on the topic, but I remember that we wanted to talk about the question is beauty enough as the first episode. So. And granted, we touched on it. We did not go as. We didn’t. But I’m sure we digress a bunch today. Also, we didn’t go into it as much as we probably planned to, but I do remember that we had decided that that was the topic going in.
Tiffany
Okay, so I stand corrected.
Katy
I agree with you. I think you can hear changes, but there’s plenty of time listening to it where I’m like, what is. What is she gonna say? You know, I don’t. I don’t really remember, or I’m interested to know what she’s gonna say about this topic. Yeah, I think it was a pretty good episode. I do, too.
Tiffany
I do too. No wonder we’ve had such incredible success, Katy.
Katy
Incredible, monumental success. Well, if you have. If you are a person who has been with us since the very beginning, and we started this show 10 years ago with a very slight email list, I think it was 100 plus people, which is not bad. And some of those hundred plus people jumped on from the very beginning and have been there all along. If you’re one of those people, I mean, I guess I got to give you a big thank you for sticking with us for 10 years and for obviously spreading the word, because those are the people who began with the show and started the ripple out into the world, passing it along. So thank you so much.
Tiffany
Yes, thank you.
Katy
And I guess we’ll leave it there. And until next time, this is The Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Barks.
Katy
Join us again.
Tiffany
Bye.
Katy
Support for The Bittersweet Life comes from you, our treasured listeners. Have you ever noticed that this show isn’t overrun by advertising like some podcasts are? That’s intentional. We are selective about who our advertising partners are. Recently a company contacted us hoping to insert commercial advertising throughout the show, both new shows and all of the shows. In the past, they wanted to buy it in bulk for just a few dollars an episode. Now, the money would have been great, helpful even. But the irritation of that of adding miscellaneous ads for random companies, loud and produced and commercial, adding that to a show that we hope is funny and intimate and thought provoking. We just really want to be selective. We want this show to be something special. And we do that in part with your financial support, your support of the time and effort and thoughtfulness and general labor and costs that it takes to produce this show. I want to thank those of you who have already pitched in and kept this show going this long. And if you haven’t yet, but you’d like to, there are links to support it in the show notes or visit thebittersweetlife.net and if you donate, watch your mailbox. We’re going to send you a handwritten thank you note and a few gifts from us.
