On The Unexpected Trauma of Moving, Part 1, an episode from our archives, Tiffany and Katy both say goodbye to their old lives: Tiffany moves out of her Trastevere apartment and braves the Roman outskirts for the first time in over a decade as an expat, and Katy’s beloved Seattle home is torn down.
On this surprisingly vulnerable episode, we explore life, loss, and the pain and annoyance of moving.
***The Bittersweet Life podcast has been on the air for an impressive 10+ years! In order to help newer listeners discover some of our earlier episodes, every Friday we are now airing an episode from our vast archives! Enjoy!***
You can listen to the episode right here, or find the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, and elsewhere.
Related Episodes:
Episode 567: What if Moving Abroad Isn’t Great? (with Darlene Sullivan)
Episode 566: How to Move to Italy (with Thea Duncan)
Episode 562: Moving to Rome—Sight Unseen, Part 2 (with Brie Ripley and Ryan Sparks)
Episode 527: Moving to Rome—Sight Unseen, Part 1 (with Brie Ripley)
Episode 391: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Moving Abroad… (with Lori-Lee Elliott)
Bittersweet Moment #168: Moving to Rome Because of the Pandemic (with Kate Wheeler)
Bittersweet Moment #79: Moving Abroad during a Pandemic (with Gabriela Proietti)
Five key takeaways from the episode:
- Tiffany is moving from her apartment in central Rome (Trastevere) to a larger home on the outskirts of the city, mainly due to having a baby and needing more space.
- The move represents a significant change in lifestyle, trading the vibrancy and convenience of central Rome for more space and practicality in a less urban area.
- Moving is described as one of the most stressful life events, comparable to divorce or major illness, due to the emotional attachment people form with their living spaces.
- The podcast hosts discuss how living abroad and major life changes like moving or having a child can fundamentally change a person and their perspective.
- Tiffany is facing numerous logistical challenges with the move, including a tight timeline to set up utilities and furniture before businesses close for August holidays in Italy.
Full Episode Transcript:
Katy
Welcome to Rome. This is the Bittersweet Life with Katy Sewall and Tiffany Parks.
Tiffany
Hello.
Katy
This is the Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
And today, Taylor. Tiffany is moving the worst.
Tiffany
Well, not today, but I’m in the middle of it, let’s say.
Katy
Well, I know. Not today, but soon, very soon.
Tiffany
Within within a week, really.
Katy
Right. Tell us what’s going on because not only is this a move. Yeah, just tell us what’s going on and then I’ll ask you more about it.
Tiffany
It’s a pretty big deal move for us because we’re moving into our first own home like, that we own. So it’s as exciting for that reason. I think it’s the biggest move I’ve ever done, like, the most stuff I’ve ever moved at one time. Because you don’t hold on to a lot of stuff when you’re an expat. And then all of a sudden you do. All of a sudden you just like, okay, I’m putting down roots. And all of a sudden you start acquiring. At least for me, I had so little stuff for so long, and all of a sudden when it kind of seemed like I was here to stay, I kind of just went the opposite direction and I started buying books and books and more books and more books. And now we have 40 or more boxes full of books that we’re trying to pack and deal with. It’s a nightmare.
Katy
You know, you would think that after all those years of living light, if you were gonna start collecting something, the last thing you would collect would be the heaviest thing possible.
Tiffany
I know, I know. It’s so ridiculous, right? Especially in today’s time of electronic books and Kindles and all that good stuff that I just have never gone there. It just, it’s silly, I resist the Kindle because I love the old fashionedness of having a real book in my hand. I’m not into the idea of reading on an electronic device. For me, personally, I mean, I’m glad it exists, but yet, it would be the smartest thing in the world for me to just toss my book collection and have a Kindle.
Katy
No, I mean, I totally understand because I feel the same way. The only time I’ve ever read anything on the Kindle was actually when I came to visit you in Rome last time. And I found it very disorienting. Like, I couldn’t tell. It tells you how much further you have to go in the book, but somehow it’s just so much harder to tell, you know, like, how long is this book? I don’t know. But why keep every book after you read it?
Tiffany
Oh, that’s something you don’t do. But I can’t part with books unless it’s a book that I hated. I can’t part with it because I’m always thinking, okay, maybe I’ll want to reread it. Because I like to reread books the way I like to see movies that I really love twice or more, even many more times than that. So I don’t want to give up on the possibility of reading a book again. Plus, it’s, I mean, it’s a collection. Like any collector, you don’t collect things for necessarily a practical reason. You collect them for a more sentimental reason, I think.
Katy
That’s true. That said, though, having been a person who just moved, as we know, to my own new house, there is nothing that makes you hate your stuff more than when you’re moving.
Tiffany
Oh, my God. Yes, it’s horrible. Moving is just the worst thing ever. I read somewhere that it’s actually one of the top five most traumatic things you can go through in your life.
Katy
Yeah, I believe it.
Tiffany
It’s right up there with divorce and a death in the family and major illness. It’s really actually a stressful thing.
Katy
Yeah. I wonder why. Why would that be? Why would it be up there with divorce? That seems dramatic.
Tiffany
Well, it is a big change, I think. You know, we’ve talked before about how you become attached to where you are, your physical living situation, and, you know, we’ve talked so much about that. I think even if you’re totally happy to move, you’re deciding to move, you want to move. Nevertheless, the space that you occupy cannot become part of you. And when you have to completely cut yourself off from that and know that you’ll never be back in that space again, I think it’s hard. It’s hard for me, anyway, when I leave a place, even if I wasn’t happy there, it’s hard for me to leave places because I get attached to them.
Katy
I mean, I feel a certain level of regret myself that you’re moving because you’re moving out of your apartment in Trastevere, which I lived up the street from, and you’re moving out of that entire neighborhood. I feel like if I come to visit, it will be completely different.
Tiffany
It will be. It will be completely different, and it’s going to be completely different for me, living in Rome, it’s not going to be the same Roman experience that I’ve always had.
Katy
Explain it more. Explain, like, what the change is to people who don’t know where you’ve been living and where you’re going.
Tiffany
Okay, well, I don’t know how many people listening are familiar with New York City. Imagine that you live in a tiny rental in the West Village, and your rental is kind of crappy. You know, you’ve made it nice, you’ve made it your own, but it’s, It’s not your own. You don’t own it. And it’s small. Hey, honey, what’s going on? You have a baby. There’s no space for him. He doesn’t have his own room. You don’t have enough space for anything. However, you live in this amazingly cool place. You can get anywhere in the city that you want to go on public transportation, and a lot of great places you can even get on foot or by bike. You’re surrounded by beautiful architecture, great little cafes, and cute shops, and, you know, it’s just full of vibrancy. There’s lots of young people around, interesting characters and local color, as Katy calls it. Hang on. I gotta see what I can bribe this kid with. So you live in this amazing but kind of frustrating place. There’s nowhere to park. It’s very uncomfortable to have a kid in the neighborhood because… well, maybe this wouldn’t be the case in the West Village, but in Rome… Oh, hang on. Okay. I just passed him off to Claudio’s cousin. She really likes to play with him. So. Okay, sorry. Where was I? So you live in this beautiful but kind of frustrating place. You don’t have enough space, but it’s a really vibrant, wonderful area. And all of a sudden you move to…
Katy
You move to New Jersey.
Tiffany
No, you don’t move to New Jersey. I’m not in New Jersey. Katy, I know you like to think that I’m living out in the middle of the sticks, but I’m not moving to New Jersey, okay? I’m still in the city of Rome. So basically, I’m still within the five boroughs. Okay. If we’re talking about New York, I’m still technically within the five boroughs. Let’s say I’m kind of like on the far edge of Queens. Yeah, okay. Like the far, far, far, far edge. Right before Queens becomes the rest of Long Island. So that’s where I am right now. That’s where I’m moving. It’s a trade off because now I have my own place. I have three bedrooms. I have lots of space. I have a big terrace. I have lots of green space around me and my kid has his own room, you know, so, I mean, it definitely is a trade off, but I am losing a big part of the outdoor aspect of my life. What I mean by that is just the city, because I can no longer walk out my front door and walk down two doors and be at the best butcher shop in the city and walk another block and be at the best cheese shop in the city and walk around the corner and be at a bakery. It’s just not that type of a neighborhood anymore. I can’t walk two blocks and find a work of Bernini. These were all things that literally I had right outside my door when I lived in Trastevere.
Katy
Do you feel like this is some sort of more dramatic move as far as your expat journey has gone? Somehow you’re becoming…
Tiffany
A local?
Katy
I don’t know, an adult.
Tiffany
I don’t think it’s about being an adult. I think it’s about becoming a local. The people who live in the center of Rome, the majority of them are foreigners, really. If you live in the center of Rome, either your family has had property there forever and. And they’ve just passed it down through the generations, but even still, a lot of people who are in that situation, they decide to rent their apartment out to tourist rental companies because it makes so much money, and then they get a place outside the city. So even that is not really the case so much anymore. It’s usually the people who live in the center of the city are people who are quite wealthy, quite wealthy Italians, or foreigners. And the foreigners do it not necessarily because they’re wealthy, but they do it because to them it’s worth it. Because you think to yourself, I’m only going to live in Rome for, who knows, one year of my life, two years of my life, maybe you don’t know how long you’re going to live there. And you think, I didn’t come all this way to live out in the suburbs or to live out in Queens or whatever it is. So you make the sacrifice, you spend the extra money, you have a smaller place so that you can experience the city. And I experienced the city, like, very, very thoroughly for 12 years, almost 12 years now. I hate to say I’m moving on because if I had unlimited money, I would absolutely be buying a place in the center. There’s no doubt about it. But it’s very expensive to purchase a home in the center of Rome. Imagine purchasing a home in Manhattan. Basically, it’s the same. It’s the same idea.
Katy
I know, you fought this for a while, this transition. It was like actually something that you and Claudia were disagreeing on. So how did you guys end up coming to purchase a condo out in the outskirts of Rome?
Tiffany
It was mainly because we had a kid, really. I don’t think it would have happened if we hadn’t had a baby. You need more space when you have a child, and I think there are practical things that come into it. It’s very, very difficult to have a child and never be able to find a parking spot. It’s really, really horrible. It’s not very nice to find syringes right outside your door, which I was starting to find in Trastevere. It’s very difficult to walk down the street with a baby carriage because there’s no sidewalks and the cars park anywhere they want and they block any kind of pedestrian path. And so it’s just frustrating. So things like that, if you want to send your child to daycare or nursery school, if you’re living in the center, you’re not going to find any kind of public option because it’s all going to be full. There’s just many different aspects to it beyond just having a bigger place. But that’s part of it, too. When you have a baby, it’s one thing to have your baby sleep in your room. Once you’ve got a toddler, they need their own space.
Katy
Yeah, he’s starting to drive you crazy. You need your own space. I think it’s part of the…
Tiffany
Yes, yes, I do, too. Yeah. Just so that he has his own room and he can play in a safe spot. That is important for him and that we have a terrace. You can have some outside time even if we’re not going out. All sorts of things like this. So. Yeah. Plus we were a little bit tired of spending so much money on rent every month. You know, sometime in life you kind of get to the point where, like, I want to own something, I want to have this money,\ go somewhere, not just disappear.
Katy
Right. So when are you actually moving?
Tiffany
We are physically moving our stuff on Sunday.
Katy
Wow. So the day this episode posts.
Tiffany
Oh, yes.
Katy
It will post Sunday night. So by the time it posts, you will be done. Hopefully.
Tiffany
Hopefully. Hopefully. We probably won’t get it all done in that one time because we’re still not done packing and we have, like less than 48 hours left and we’re not even nearly done packing, but we will probably be moving in the weekend following. So, like, the week, weekend of the 30th, 31st is probably when we’re gonna move in.
Katy
Wow. Just in time for your birthday.
Tiffany
I know, I know. And Aurelio’s birthday too, right? So, yeah.
Katy
Do you have a sense already? I know this has been like super stressful, particularly with a baby and the fact that both you and Claudio are working and not having time to pack and then moving far away. So you probably have to do a number of trips and all that good stuff. But do you have a sense of how you’re going to feel when that apartment in Trastevere is empty?
Tiffany
I’m trying not to think about that. It’s definitely hard for me. It’s like I said, I get attached to places easily. And that place, I mean, that’s the place I was living when I got married. That’s the place I was living, you know, that’s the place we brought Aurelio to home from the hospital. It’s an important place for me. I think I live there longer than I’ve lived anywhere except for where I grew up actually. So it’s already hard. Like we’ve moved some stuff already to a small storage unit that my in laws have. I’m already seeing it different. The electricity is off so it’s not livable at all anymore. There’s no going back. It’s hard. It’s bittersweet. I’m so excited though, to be in my new place. Like I am beyond excited. And I think part of it is because I’ve been living with my in-laws for four months and I’m about to lose my mind.
Katy
Living with the in-laws. Maybe everybody should do that.
Tiffany
Yeah. I think if there’s ever like a movie that you’re not sure you want to do, move in with your in-laws for a few months. And let me tell you, you will be so excited to move into that new place.
Katy
Yeah, right. Seriously. So did I tell you, Tiffany, as we know, that I went through this moving saga of also having to let go of the place. In fact, really, when you think about it, during the course of this show, this show’s creation, I’ve moved, what, three times. Moved to Rome. Back from Rome. Yeah, that’s true.
Tiffany
That’s true.
Katy
I’m only starting to understand how much that level of change affects me. Not only like moving my physical location, but I’ve switched jobs a bunch of times. Of course, here I think that I’m a totally sane individual. And then lately I’ve been thinking, am I, Did I come out of this okay? Am I, Am I alright? There’s so many changes that you wonder, am I taking A time to process it. Or am I not? I don’t know. I bet the listeners have a better answer to that than I do because they’ve been hearing about it so much. And then I think I told you we moved out of our house in Seattle because it was bought by developers and was going to be ripped down. And I wrote this big, long article about it that a lot of people in the city responded to, about the sadness of losing a place you love and having no control over it. And so now every place I go, if I run into somebody, they’ll say, oh, did you move yet? You know, strangers. Did you move yet? Did you find a place? And I have moved, and I did find a place. But the shock of driving past the old location and finding that it had been torn down was insane. I was kind of keeping my eye on it because I thought the journalists in me, the radio producer in me, since we’ve talked about it so much on this show, should be there when the bulldozer first takes its strike and record the sound of it. But then I thought, no, I can’t do that. But then I just decided one afternoon, well, just go see had they staged all the equipment to pull it down yet? Where are they in the teardown process? And to find it actually obliterated was nuts.
Tiffany
I can’t even imagine.
Katy
It not only obliterated, it wasn’t like the land was clear. No, no. It was like a pile of rubble with my fireplace still standing in the middle of it. Oh, and the front banister from the front stoop where we used to sit all the time, still there.
Tiffany
Makes me think about what people must go through when a tornado rips through their town.
Katy
Right.
Tiffany
I mean, that has got to be. I mean, obviously worse because all their stuff is inside.
Katy
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Tiffany
Oh, God.Yeah. It’s hard. That’s why I’m saying. I mean, obviously not everyone goes through that when they move, but nevertheless, moving is traumatic. You’re giving up a little part of yourself. I think every time you move, there’s a little part of yourself that you have to leave behind.
Katy
That’s an interesting way of putting it. But then at the same point, there’s also, like, you’re talking about with your new place, there’s that level of excitement or how I felt moving to Rome. Like, once it was all set and done and all my stuff was stuffed in storage and I had a suitcase of everything I was bringing with me, which, by the way, was the easiest move I’ve ever made in the Sense of material possessions. There is this level of excitement, of loss and joy. It’s not even joy. It’s anticipation.
Tiffany
I am definitely feeling anticipation right now.
Katy
Yeah. And I still miss my old place.
Tiffany
Which one? The one. The one in Seattle.
Katy
The one that’s gone. Of course. It was cozy and it was a beautiful house. And I can’t believe that we live in a world that would tear down a perfectly nice spot. I do believe it because I’m a reporter, but it hurts me.
Tiffany
The home that I grew up in, which, you know. Well, you knew well, is also gone.
Katy
Yeah.
Tiffany
And the foundations remained, but it was purchased by someone who wanted some massive, giant monster house. I mean, the house was already big. It was already a very generously sized house. I don’t know. I think it’s maybe at least one story higher than it was, if not two. Just one of those gigantic houses on, like, a lot that was not made for a house that size. My mother’s beautiful dahlia garden is, of course, completely gone. The lawn. I don’t know what the state of the lawn is, but, I mean, that’s the home, of course, where I spent my formative years. I lived there from the time I was three to the time I was 18. And I went back not every summer, but most summers until I was in my mid-20s, until I moved to Rome, basically. And now it’s gone. And I have not been back to Mercer island, with the exception of one night I spent there during a friend’s wedding. I spent just one night at an old friend’s house, but I didn’t go anywhere near my old house. That’s the only time I’ve spent in my hometown since then. I would really, really love to go back. And I mean, I’m going to go back the next time we’re in Seattle, we’re going to go. I’m going to take my husband there and show him where I grew up. But it’s going to be so hard for me to see the space without our house.
Katy
We got an email yesterday, and I hope Leah doesn’t mind if I share this because I haven’t written her back yet. But I just. Since we’re talking about moving, I thought you would find this interesting. Let me read it to you really quick. Hi, Tiffany and Katy. I just moved back to the Seattle area, Mercer Island. Tiffany. Seriously, after having lived in Switzerland for the past 11 years. While in Switzerland, I worked for. For an international organization as a fraud investigator.
Tiffany
Wow.
Katy
So I traveled to the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia, Southeast Asia. And South America for work. Prior to that, I lived in France and in Austria. Consequently, the adjustment has been even more difficult as I find it hard to relate to my friends and family. It’s lonesome and I miss speaking French and being around people who get me. However, I would never trade the experiences I have had overseas in exchange for fitting in with everyone. I would rather be a well traveled loner.
Tiffany
Wow. Yeah. Yeah, wow, right?
Katy
I feel like that sometimes. And I didn’t even get in as deep as Leah did. Not even close. Not even close to as deep.
Tiffany
It affects people in different ways. There are people who can live for 10 years in foreign country and move back and it’s like they were never gone. And there are people like you who can live for one year abroad and they’re changed forever. So it doesn’t matter that you haven’t been here as long as other people have. You could still have been affected more.
Katy
Yeah, yeah. And it’s interesting too. It’s almost like as if that for me, that year abroad, and maybe this is the case for people who even live abroad for longer than a year, it’s almost like if it was the story of my life and the story was written down in sentences, this would be the. The slash mark that’s in the middle dividing the front part from the after part.
Tiffany
Right, right. Because nothing can ever be the same.
Katy
After which you wouldn’t think that it would necessarily make that big of a distinction. And maybe that’s part of why you feel like people don’t really understand when you go back home and encounter people who have never lived anywhere else. I mean, for me, it’s also a big slash mark because it’s like, quit your big job, quit that, quit this, you know.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Katy
Throw everything away, start again. Which obviously I didn’t do. But it does feel like the person I was before then and the person I am afterwards is a different creature. And I like the new creature. But it’s certainly been hard, I imagine.
Tiffany
I can’t even imagine moving back, like how it would be to adjust. I really can’t.
Katy
I can’t even imagine you coming back.
Tiffany
Yeah, I mean, it’s very likely that I will someday, but I can’t imagine it.
Katy
Yeah. And if you do, we’ll document it.
Tiffany
Oh yeah, we definitely will.
Katy
And I wonder if you will find. We’ll have to check back in. I wonder if you will find that in some way moving out of Trastevere becomes a slash mark in your own life too.
Tiffany
Well, that and I think honestly having a child. I think it changes you in a way. Such a way. Not that it changes you. I mean, yes, it does, but it changes what your life is like so much that you see everything in terms of before baby and after baby.
Katy
Right?
Tiffany
Yeah.
Tiffany
I mean, I definitely have a big.
Tiffany
Slash mark when I moved to Italy, for sure.
Katy
Yeah.
Tiffany
But this one. Having a baby is definitely. It’s a life changer. I mean, to put it lightly.
Katy
So now we’ve proven one thing. Becoming an expat is not as life changing as having a child.
Tiffany
I never said that. I never said that. I think it depends on the person. It depends on your experience. Yeah, nothing’s the same for every two people.
Katy
No, I know, I know. I’m trying to come up with a good conclusion for this show.
Tiffany
Okay. Sorry I ruined your conclusion.
Katy
Yeah, stop ruining my conclusions.
Tiffany
Your conclusion should be that every time you move, you gain something and you lose something. How’s that?
Katy
And how important it is to take note of what you’re gaining and losing?
Tiffany
Sounds like a topic for my next journal entry.
Katy
Oh, very nice. Okay, everybody sit down. Write that out.
Tiffany
Except I haven’t written my journal in, like, years.
Katy
Maybe you should start.
Tiffany
I know I need to start, but I have no time. I have no time. Julia Cameron would say, find the time.
Katy
That’s right.
Tiffany
But Julia Cameron does not wake up every two hours to a crying baby. I don’t think so.
Katy
I know I have the time. What’s my excuse?
Tiffany
Well, that’s not necessarily true. You have a very demanding job. Your job is more demanding than mine.
Katy
So I said to a friend of mine the other day, I have this overwhelming tug to write right now. And still, while I am writing more often than I was, I still have days where I’ll think, okay, as soon as I get home from work, I’m going to write. And then I will do everything I can at night to avoid it. I will make dinner.
Tiffany
I will.
Tiffany
Yeah. Procrastination. It’s a bitch, man.
Katy
And I said, I think I might be afraid of discovering what I find once I start writing. And my very wise friend said, well, what you’re going to find is already there, so maybe you should start writing to find it.
Tiffany
There you go.
Tiffany
Very smart.
Katy
Yeah, he probably said it more eloquently than that, but it’s a good point. You can’t run from your pain, I suppose.
Tiffany
Well, on that note. On. On that.
Katy
Anyway. Should we leave it on that happy note?
Tiffany
Should we leave it there?
Katy
Sure. Don’t worry, people. We’ll be fine. Nobody’s going to be harmed. Tiffany will have a successful move. Are we gonna be able to catch up next week, Tiffany? I wonder.
Tiffany
I’m not gonna promise it because it’s gonna be kind of crazy. It’s going to be kind of crazy because it’s not just the physical moving of stuff. I have, like 200 appointments between next Tuesday and the following Sunday. It’s ridiculous because in Italy, everything stops at the beginning of August. August comes, everything closes. You can’t get anything done anymore. Shops are closed. So I have to get everything done between the 26th, when we get the keys, and the 31st, basically. And the 31st and the 30th are the weekend. So basically from the 26th to the 29th, I have to have all the new furniture delivered, have the kitchen delivered and set up, have the gas set up, have the electricity set up, have the bathroom stuff brought over, have the bathroom stuff set up. It’s just. It’s going to be nuts. So I can’t make any promises.
Katy
Okay. So we will not count on you for next week’s show. But I’m hopeful that once you’re settled, we will be on together much more often.
Tiffany
I hope so. I’ll have my own computer again. That’ll help.
Katy
Won’t that be amazing? All right, so we have that to look forward to. And good luck, Tiffany, with the move.
Tiffany
Thank you. Thank you, darling.
Katy
I’m kind of glad I’m not there to help you.
Tiffany
Oh, thanks.
Katy
I just hate moving so much. So I feel your pain.
Tiffany
Well, who doesn’t?
Katy
Yeah. Well, until next time, this is the Bittersweet life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
Join us again. Bye. We turn to you to help this show grow and thrive. We can’t do it without you. So to tell a friend or join our facebook page facebook.com/ thebittersweetlife. And please review the show if you never have before. And a big thank you to those of you who have donated to the show. We are so grateful. And if you wish you got real mail, from time to time, all our donors get handwritten thank you notes. That’s how much it means to us. Your donation makes the show possible. It doesn’t just disappear into some big organization’s coffers. Every little bit is endlessly appreciated. We adore you guys. Thanks for everything.