Tiffany moved to Italy as an expat in the fall of 2004—almost exactly two decades ago. Since then, she’s married an Italian and started a family, bought a home in Italy, and become an Italian citizen, so… is it time to change that label from expat to immigrant?
On Episode 548 Are You an Expat or Immigrant?, we discuss this question in response to a listener email. Why can’t Tiffany seem to relinquish the label of expat? Despite being a fully fledged Italian citizen, why does she still not feel as Italian as the native-born? And does the choice of using the term “expat” or “immigrant” have anything to do with race or privilege?
You can listen right here, or find the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, and elsewhere.
Related Episodes:
Episode 373: The Label Debate Continues (with Keith Cooke)
Here are 5 key points from the episode:
- Katy and Tiffany discuss a listener email about their use of the terms “expat” and “immigrant,” noting potential racial implications in how they’re applied.
- They examine dictionary definitions of related terms like expatriate, immigrant, and emigrate.
- Tiffany reflects on how her early years in Italy fit the temporary nature of the “expat” label, but her situation has since changed.
- They discuss how Tiffany, despite having Italian citizenship, still identifies as an expat due to her long-standing connection to America.
- They conclude that “expat” implies temporariness and privilege, while acknowledging Tiffany’s situation may now be more accurately described as an immigrant.
Full Episode Transcript:
Katy
Hello, this is The Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall. Support for this show comes from you. If you have the means and you like to listen, please support this work at patreon.com/thebittersweetlifepodcast there’s a link in the show notes. And please know you matter to the health and life of this show. Now, when a show is ten years old with over 500 episodes, there are a lot of great topics and shows in the archives, plenty you’ve probably missed. Today we’re going to revisit one of those conversations. Today we listen back to a conversation from May 30, 2021. Enjoy.
Introduction
Welcome to Rome. This is The Bittersweet Life with Katy Sewall and Tiffany Parks.
Katy
Hello. This is The Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
So today we’re going to respond to a listener email from Lewis. Now, this came in a number of weeks ago, but I think it’s still relevant. I believe he wrote around the time that we were talking about the book speak Okinawa. But anyway, here’s the letter, Katy and Tiffany, in your most recent episode. So whenever that was, you discussed a bias that exists towards certain expats. I don’t think you expressly labeled it this way, but it seemed to me that your examples were of a white versus non white nature. French versus asian immigrants in the US, anglophones versus non anglophones in Italy. You remember that conversation, right, Tiffany? Where.
Tiffany
I do, I do. I think that was the episode. Cross cultural challenges, if I’m not mistaken, or cross cultural families. One of those two, yeah.
Katy
And you were sort of explaining how in Italy, certain expats are kind of more welcomed into the country than others based on background, which is an unfortunate case, but that’s what we were talking about. Okay, so the letter goes on. I’m wondering if you are perhaps participating in reinforcing this bias when you use the word expat. The use of the word expat versus immigrant is not something I had ever considered before my girlfriend brought it up a year ago. Rachel, my girlfriend, lived in Mexico for three years before we met. She is often frustrated by the fact that Americans so consistently label her as having been an expat, while Mexicans living in the United States are exclusively labeled immigrants. I’ve been paying attention since then, and I’ve come to notice that this is largely consistent throughout our culture. When white people move to another country, they are expats, and when non white people move to another country, they are immigrants. I think this goes hand in hand with the bias you talked about in the latest episode. Some cultures unfairly favor others. I’ve noticed over the years, I’ve listened to your show that you both refer to Tiffany as an expat. I’m wondering if you’ve given thought as to why Tiffany is not referred to as an immigrant. I’m curious to hear what you think from Louis P’s. Please forgive me if this is something you’ve covered. I’ve been through a sizable but incomplete backlog of the show. So I did write Louis back and said, yeah, we would take this up on the show, but also that we have talked about this before, not so much why you call yourself an expat versus an immigrant, but we did talk about whether or not the expat term was a white term or not. And we sort of largely with various guests of all racial backgrounds, decided that it’s really not a white term. It’s more of a. What was it? More of a privilege term, maybe like.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Katy
And also an intention term. Do you intend to go and stay, or do you intend to go live a while and move away again? So those were sort of the, I hate to say conclusions because it’s an ongoing exploration, but that’s some of the things that we explored in the past. Do you have anything you want to add to that, or should we jump right into your terminology?
Tiffany
Yeah, I mean, I just was thinking about that, and it really, I think it not only depends on where you’re coming from, but it also depends on where you’re going to. Because I think in the United States, the vast majority of quote unquote immigrants who move there are from Central America and are therefore most cases not white. In Italy, there’s also a large number of people of color who come and are immigrants, but there are also a large number of people who come from Eastern Europe as what most people would call immigrants. And again, we’ll get into the differences or whatever, but I’m thinking of people, particularly from Poland, from Albania, from Romania. These people would be classified by most Italians unless they were, like, specifically trying to label themselves in a different way as immigrants. And most people from those three countries are white. So, yeah, I really don’t, I don’t want to start rehash the whole conversation that we had back in episode. I think it was called expat versus immigrant.
Katy
Yeah, I mean, we did a few, whatever. One our long time listener, Keith Cook, was on.
Tiffany
I think it’s an interesting, I do think it’s an interesting conversation and one that has a lot of merit to it and should be talked about. But. And I think that it just so happens that a lot of people from privileged backgrounds are white. That’s the reason that it seems sometimes like it’s just a white terminology. But in truth, I really think it’s more about the country that you’re from, whether you’re, you know, an African American or whether you’re, you know, you could be someone from England who is of an asian background who decides to move to another country. It’s not so much the color of your skin as it is the place you were born and raised and the privileges that come along with being from that country. There are a certain number of privileges that are just sort of ingrained in someone who was born and raised in the United States that someone who was born and raised in Honduras probably doesn’t have. And so when those people choose to move abroad, it is much more likely for pleasure or for an experience or for curiosity and not because of need, because they have no choice, because where they’re living is unlivable. And so the expat is having an adventure. Yay. You know, and that’s, I think, where that terminology comes from. Whereas the immigrant is like, I need to make a better life for myself and my family, and they put down roots in a more permanent way.
Katy
Yeah. It’s that intention to stay versus. I could always go home.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Katy
It’s funny, though, because Louis mentions his girlfriend Rachel, and how she gets frustrated that people always refer to her as an expat. But then you also say, Rachel, my girlfriend, lived in Mexico for three years before we met. So I don’t know if that means she’s still in Mexico and you met in Mexico, or she was in Mexico and now she’s back somewhere else, wherever she was from, you don’t tell me where you guys are. So I could see how if she’s back to wherever she was from after being in Mexico, her friends would say, well, she was there for three years, so obviously she was an expat. That would depend on if you’re still there. Did she permanently move to Mexico and people called her an expat still? That’s hard to say.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Katy
Well, I thought it would be fun. Tiffany, before we talk exactly about why you still refer to yourself as an expat even though you are an Italian citizen now, I, as you know, have these two dictionaries that I just love to pull out when we get to how we define ourselves and our words, just to give us a perspective on how concepts change. So I had to look up. I have a 1945 Webster’s modern multi picture dictionary. Yes. There are pictures in this. And then I have my grandfather’s Webster’s vest pocket dictionary, which I love, because it just. It’s so tiny that it has to break it down into two words. You know, every word has to be, like, its essence, as far as he was concerned back then. But I think we’ll start with the more expansive definitions from the 1945. And, of course, they don’t have the word expat per se in there, but they do have expatriate.
Tiffany
Well, expat is just the shortened version of expatriates.
Katy
Right, right. But, you know, they could mean different things, I suppose, in our modern world, but. So how they define that is to drive from one’s native country.
Tiffany
Okay.
Katy
That’s very simple. To expatriate, you’re thrusting yourself away from your native country. That’s how I read that. To drive from one’s native country, not.
Tiffany
Drive in a car. Okay. I was picturing someone driving.
Katy
Yeah, that would be weird if the definition must include a car. Okay. So then an immigrant is passing or coming into as a new habitat or place of residence. So I like that there’s this, like, thrusting outward with an expat, and then there’s this coming into as an immigrant coming into a new habitat or place of residence. Another definition they had is one who or that which migrates, which is written very convoluted. One who or that which immigrates is the other definition of that.
Tiffany
Okay.
Katy
And then I looked up migratory, because we also hear a lot about migratory workers. So I was like, well, how in 1945, would they define migratory as opposed to these other two definitions? And that was defined as removing or passing from one’s place of abode or resort to another roaming Nomad, which is interesting when we consider that digital nomad is such a common term now.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Katy
This kind of idea of roving around. And I don’t know that we sometimes think of the digital nomad as a migratory worker, but in a way, under this definition, they are.
Tiffany
Well, I mean, they are migratory in the sense that they move around. I feel like a migratory worker is someone who goes for a specific season to do work that is necessary in that place at that time.
Katy
True, true. But you could argue that the digital nomad is migratory more than being an expat, because they’re not necessarily living in one place.
Tiffany
No, they’re definitely more migratory. But I feel like they are work. They’re moving around again, it goes back to the expat thing. They’re moving around because they want to be moving around. They’re not chasing the work. They have work that is remote, usually, and they are taking advantage of their remote work to do what they want to do, which is travel. Whereas a migratory worker is sometimes making a perilous journey so that they can get work for a certain number of months. In my head, like agricultural work comes to mind, but it could be other things as well.
Katy
All right, so now do you want to go to the pocket dictionary version?
Tiffany
Yes. Oh, I thought that was the pocket dictionary because it was so short.
Katy
Oh, no, those are the expansions. But that was so short.
Tiffany
How could it be any shorter than that?
Katy
They can be so much shorter. Okay, you’re about to find out.
Tiffany
Okay.
Katy
Okay. So expatriate in the pocket. Webster’s vest pocket dictionary. It means to exile.
Tiffany
To exile. That is intense.
Katy
Which is kind of like that old definition of, you know what, some sort of punishment. You, Tiffany, have faulted the king, and now I banish you to the countryside. You are exiled. You are expatriate from. That’s used improperly. But, you know, I expatriate you from this nation forever.
Tiffany
Yeah. Well, I mean, in a sense, it does mean to leave your country to.
Katy
X, you know, to remove yourself. Yeah.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Katy
It’s interesting. Okay. Immigrate. To immigrate in this shortened version means to settle in a new country. That one’s not as surprising. And then to migrate is to change one’s place of abode. Apparently that changing one’s place of abode is very important to this definition.
Tiffany
Back then, there’s another word that you’re missing that I think you should look up.
Katy
Okay.
Tiffany
And that’s emigrate with an e. Okay.
Katy
Hold on 1 second. Oh, another. The best pocket dictionary, before we go too far, also has wandering under. Under migrate. All right, 1 second. Let me go grab them.
Tiffany
Okay.
Katy
Because I already. I looked these up ahead of time, so now I have to go get the actual books.
Tiffany
Of course.
Katy
We’ll have to see if they’re even in here. Okay. Emigrate. You’re saying em e m I. Okay, emigrate. This is. Oh, this is from the modern, multi pictured 1945 dictionary. To leave one’s country to settle in another.
Tiffany
Okay, so it’s very similar. Very similar. But slightly.
Katy
But it’s a little less. It’s a little less driving than an expatriate and a little less. I don’t know if you compare that to immigrant passing or coming into a new habitat or place of residence. It does have kind of a more active definition. To leave one’s country, to settle in another is more active than passing or coming into as a new habitat or place of residence.
Tiffany
Yeah, I feel like a big part of the difference, at least in terminology, seems to be that immigrants, or, you know, the words that are sort of derived from that word, it’s all about the place that they’re going, the place that they’re settling, the place that they’re making a new home, whereas the expat, it’s about where they’re leaving. They’re leaving their home. They’re being exiled from their home, or they’re being driven out, or they’re doing it on purpose. So it’s more about going away, whereas immigrant, it’s more about arriving. Yeah, if that makes sense.
Katy
And just implied that starting again. Let’s see. Is it even in, is this word even in the best pocket dictionary is the real question.
Tiffany
Oh, that dictionary is tiny.
Katy
No, look how small it is. Isn’t it cute? So cute. I. I can barely see the words. Okay, it’s in here. Okay. All right. Immigrate. Leaving one’s own country for another. So very similar.
Tiffany
Same thing.
Katy
Exactly. Almost exactly similar. And one of the longer definitions on this page.
Tiffany
So what does that tell us, Katy?
Katy
Okay, so what does that tell us? Well, I mean, what does. How does that inform you and how you define yourself?
Tiffany
Well, I think the word, the word that feels of those definitions, that feels closest to my life is the emigrate one.
Katy
Oh, so not even on the list of expat versus immigrant. You’re an immigrant.
Tiffany
Emigrate, yeah. An emigrate. Is that the word?
Katy
Is that even the word?
Tiffany
Yeah. You know, I think after all these years, I really should probably call myself an immigrant. But for some reason, that word has become part of my identity.
Katy
The expat word.
Tiffany
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because, I don’t know. I think it’s starting to go out of fashion as a word right now. But when I first moved here 17 years ago, it was like, you know, and I had this big expat community. You know, I wasn’t very rooted in, like, I didn’t have very many Italian friends. I was very much living on the sort of surface of the country those first two, maybe three years I was here. And I think it really fit me. I was truly an expat. I didn’t have citizenship for several years there. I didn’t even have working documents. I didn’t have, I wasn’t fully integrated into Italian life. I did speak the language. I will give myself that.
Tiffany
Well, not only did I not know that it’s partially about intention, but it’s also partially about opportunity. And being from a privileged background, being an American, you know, I have the opportunity to go back home. It’s not like I can never go back. You know, I’ll be in danger or I will lose everything that I work so hard for. It’s just not my case, and not the case of most of expats from developed countries. Many people move abroad simply for the experience. Short term, one year, two years, five years. I moved abroad hoping that I would stay for a long time, but I always knew that I could go back. If it didn’t work out, I’ll just go home. And that, for me, is what makes the big difference now. That’s really not the case as much anymore. I could still go back home. If civil war descended on Italy, obviously, you know, we would just go to the United States. But I am much more entrenched here now. I own a home. I’m married to an Italian. I have an Italian child. He’s enrolled in school. I, until recently, had a job. I still technically have it, but it’s not. It’s on pause. It’s been on pause for over a year, but I still technically am employed in a long term lifetime contract. You know, so, you know, I have a mortgage. I’m just, I’m very much more entrenched in life over here. So it’s not like I can just be like, you know, on a dime, be like, you know what? I’m kind of bored with life over here. I’m going back or I’m going to move to a different country. That’s not going to happen. I could move to a different country, but it’s not going to happen like that. It’s going to be a major shift. It’s going to take a year minimum of planning. If I want to do that, it’s going to be a big deal. Also because I have appendages now, you’re.
Katy
Also at a point, too, because you have an Italian family now and because you have Italian citizenship and all these things, maybe not so much because of the Italian citizenship, but because you have all these things, you would have to sort of start over more than you would have prior.
Tiffany
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Katy
To find a job, to figure out where you’re going to live. If you were to move back to the United States now from Italy, you’d take a hit.
Tiffany
Oh, for sure.
Katy
Financially and professionally, just because you’d have to reorient yourself and because what you earn in Italy is so vastly different to what Americans earn, et cetera, et cetera, all these different things. Right. It would be much more of a challenge, a heavier lift.
Tiffany
Well, here’s the thing. When you’ve moved abroad and you’ve completely restarted a new life in a different country, yes. On the one hand, you know, it can be done, but on the other hand, you know, how much effort it takes and how long it takes to really become settled and become, you know, to figure things out. And the idea of doing it again, even if that country is your own country, seems incredibly daunting. The idea of moving back to the states, to me, seems very, very daunting, even just to get used to life there again. So not used to it anymore beyond vacation. So the longer I’m here, the less I really am an expat. And it’s funny, this is kind of off topic, but it does connect. Lots of people on the social media accounts that I follow have been kind of debating having this debate about, like what we talked about last week, which was, should Italy be opening up its borders to the world? Is this risk, is this, you know, a health risk, or is this what the economy needs? And there’s this debate going back and forth. And a lot of the expat community, the so called expat community in Rome at least, is against it. You know, they don’t want the city to open, the country to be opening back up. They think it’s too soon. Whereas at least from what I’ve been seeing, the Italians, they want people to come back like they’re ready. They, they’re desperate. And so all this is to say that I’ve just heard a lot of people saying, like, oh, you know, it doesn’t matter what the expats are saying. We need to listen to the Italians. My gut reaction, my knee jerk reaction, I didn’t respond to any of this, but my knee jerk reaction was to say, I am Italian. You know, I am an Italian, and I do really feel Italian sometimes, not all the time. When it comes to, like, being able to have an opinion about, you know, the country and the state of the country and politics and the government, I want to be given just as much a voice as any Italian. But I don’t know that that’s fair necessarily, because I do have that sort of, you know, that back door.
Katy
Yeah, I know, but it is fair in the sense that, for instance, over here in the United States, at least in liberal old Seattle, we want the people who are immigrants to this country to have as much of a voice and a say in what is happening in the government that represents them as we want anybody to be able to. They’re part of the system. Yeah. And so, I mean, does it just feel different again because of some sort of elite, something I don’t even know?
Tiffany
Yeah, I think there is a difference. I think there is a difference. I totally agree with you, and I think it should be the same for me, too. It should be. But there’s something that, I think it’s that sense that I came to live here out of desire, out of, oh, you know, how fun will it be to live in Italy? You know, obviously I’ve stayed for more serious reasons than just that, but I feel like that doesn’t give me as much of a right as somebody who moved and is going to be permanent. There is never going to leave, is totally invested, has taken on this new identity as an Italian, an immigrant into Italy, and there’s no other options. They have nothing to fall back on. I feel like those people somehow deserve more of a say than I do. I know it sounds silly probably, but I do sometimes feel like that.
Katy
That’s interesting because that means you sort of hold yourself apart for a reason.
Tiffany
And, I mean, maybe that’s why I. I’m sure that it is all, you know, connected to the reason that I still refer to myself as an expat, because there is something. There is some little bit of me that’s still, you know, I’ve got my. I’ve got my feet in two different countries, in a way.
Katy
Is that about. Because I bet that’s the experience of, like, most immigrants would feel like they have their feet in two countries.
Tiffany
I suppose so.
Katy
I mean, does that mean that you somehow feel like even though you’ve been there for almost 20 years now and have been recognized as an Italian citizen, that you still feel like a bit of what. And I’m trying to think of what the word would be. It’s not like an imposter.
Tiffany
No, an outsider.
Katy
It’s the wrong word, but that you’re, like other. You’re different. You’ll never really belong.
Tiffany
Yeah. And I think that that’s part of just the culture of Italy. I don’t think Italy is as unwelcoming as some other countries. I mean, I just compare it to America. I feel like America is very, for the most part, welcoming place, and it’s so used to having immigrants. Like, immigration is such a part of the history of the United States. It makes sense that even though obviously we don’t live in an ideal world, so it’s not always the case, but ideally, immigrants are more considered part of the soup, whereas in Italy, it’s a very ethnic country, or at least it has been until the last, maybe like, 50 years. And 99% of the people you see on the street are ethnically Italian. So even if you become Italian and have citizenship and have lived there for 20 years, there is still, if you’re clearly not from there, if you weren’t born there, you’re always going to be treated a little bit differently. I find myself referring to myself occasionally as a foreigner, just to give an example. I was just having a meeting with my son’s school, and we were talking about various things, and I. I said, you know, as a foreigner, and I expressed sort of my opinion about something about Italian schools. And I just, and I thought back about that. I’m like, I’m technically not a foreigner anymore, but I still feel like I am.
Katy
Which does it make you feel weird about sharing your opinion in that kind of context?
Tiffany
I mean, I think I’m a pretty opinionated person generally, so I will share my opinion, but, you know, I don’t have the background of, you know, someone born and raised here. I don’t have. I don’t know as much about. Well, politics for sure. I don’t know as much.
Katy
Well, and you didn’t go to school there.
Tiffany
Yeah, exactly.
Katy
Which is also interesting. Like, you don’t really know the school system from the inside. I don’t know, Tiffany, I think you might be an immigrant.
Tiffany
I might. I mean, I am probably.
Katy
Maybe you could be both.
Tiffany
Well, yeah, maybe.
Katy
Because if we’re going to go with the 1945 definition to drive from one’s native country, you certainly did that.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Katy
You certainly propelled yourself into Italian life just by sheer force of will. And that can be a part of your character and not by, like, dire need, you know. So you did drive yourself into that life, to life in Rome, but you’re also, I think, an immigrant now.
Tiffany
Yeah, I think so, too. I think there’s something about expat that. The word expat, that at least the original, I feel like the original meaning that, you know, like Hemingway talked about in some of his books, it’s like you don’t stay for very long. You might stay a couple years, then you might have another experience in another country. And, you know, there’s often the expat, you know, the corporate expats who just are moved around, you know, they don’t even have a choice. They’re just told, okay, you’re gonna spend the next six months in Germany, and then you’re going to spend the next year in Australia.
Katy
And they just go, yeah, military families, very much like that.
Tiffany
Yeah, but there’s a difference there. There’s a difference with the military families because they don’t really integrate into the culture. Hardly at all, because they live on the base. Everything is in languished. The grocery stores are just like American grocery stores. They have American tv. So I think that’s even less than an expat somehow. Not that it isn’t a challenge, of course, but it’s. They’re in an enclave, you know? But anyway, words do change along the way.
Katy
Yeah. And I do think that expat is being redefined, constantly being redefined. But I think at its core, it really does have to do with that temporariness of you’re going for a time and you will go home. And that also has to do with privilege, because not everyone gets to do that.
Tiffany
Nope.
Katy
But I don’t think that it’s an exclusively white term anymore.
Tiffany
No, I don’t at all.
Katy
I feel like that’s unfair, given the global world that we live in. But I think it is about privilege. All right, well, that was interesting. Thanks for writing in Louis and asking us that question. Hopefully. I don’t know that we answered directly, but I think it’s interesting. Well, at least we’re at least going to graft immigrant onto Tiffany’s expat status.
Tiffany
Okay, do I need to update my Instagram bio?
Katy
Maybe. I’ll let you decide that. If you have a question that you want to ask us, feel free. You can always write to us at bittersweetlifepodcast@gmail.com. You can also send us a note through social media.
Tiffany
Yes, we are on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Just search for The Bittersweet Life
Katy
You will find us in every single month over at Patreon for our regular donors at $5 a month or more, and for the major donors over on PayPal as well. We do answer listener questions, anything that is asked, generally way off topic, sometimes as bonus episodes over there. So if you’re interested in hearing a little bit more off the books stuff, join us on Patreon. You can find a link in the show notes, and it’s a good way to keep the show alive and running. And until next time, this is The Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
One last thing to note. This show stays alive because of the people who listen this week I want to thank Leah and she sent a note, which I love. It actually made me laugh out loud. I’m going to read it. I hope you don’t mind, Leah. She says, ladies, love your work, visited Rome for the first time during the spring of 2019 and was mesmerized by all that I saw. But I did miss my ice filled drinks. When Katy mentioned that in an episode that she too longed for ice, I laughed out loud. I thought it was only me who noticed. I hope my donation helps in a small way to keep the two of you working together. From Leah in Ohio. Leah, thank you so much. Of course, every donation goes toward keeping this show alive. We so appreciate your support and we loved getting your note. If you’re interested in supporting the show, please visit thebittersuitelife.net and click on the donation buttons. You can donate through PayPal or sign up for Patreon and get regular bonus episodes every month. Join us again. Bye.
