How much has Italian Christmas changed over the years? We dig into this on Episode 564: An Ever-changing Holiday.
As it turns out, even in the last ten years, since we began this show, the way Italians celebrate Christmas has evolved. We listen back to one of our very first episodes, when we discussed Katy’s first (and only) Christmas in Italy back in 2013. How did it feel different to her from Christmas in the States, and what makes an expat Christmas different from one in your home country?
Listening back, Tiffany observes how different Christmas in Italy feels only ten years later.
You can listen right here, or find the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, and elsewhere.
Related Episodes:
Episode 407: All I Watch for Christmas
Episode 347: A Literary Christmas (with Nancy Pearl)
Bittersweet Moment #132: Italian Christmas Sweets
Bittersweet Moment #90: Merry Christmas from Aurelio
Five key takeaways from the episode:
- The podcast hosts reflect on how Christmas celebrations in Italy have changed over the past 10 years, with more commercialization and earlier decorating now compared to before.
- They discuss differences between American and Italian Christmas traditions, including the timing of decorations, gift-giving practices, and the importance of nativity scenes in Italy.
- The hosts note how online shopping has largely replaced mall shopping for Christmas gifts in recent years, changing the holiday experience.
- They mention adopting some Italian Christmas traditions, like positioning the ox and donkey closer to the manger scene figures.
- The hosts discuss the lack of Christmas performances and concerts in Rome compared to the abundance of holiday shows in cities like Seattle, expressing disappointment at the limited options in Italy’s capital.
Full Episode Transcript:
Katy
Hello, this is The Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all of you. Thank you so much for being with us in 2024. Hopefully you’ll join us again in 20. Tiffany in Rome, Katy in Seattle. And if you’ve been listening to a few episodes ago, you heard that we celebrated our 10th year in production of this show this year. And we did kind of a flashback episode, throwback episode, looked at what was the first episode we ever did on this show. Like, how does it hold up and how have we changed since then? So you can go back and look at that if you’ve missed it. But we’ve decided that it would also be fun. Not that we’re going to constantly be like reflecting on old episodes, but we thought it would be fun to go back and listen to the very first episode we ever did about the holidays because it was the third episode we ever made of this show was about the holidays. Now I’ve edited this episode a little bit to take out some of the Halloween stuff because, hey, let’s face it, we’re celebrating. Many of us are celebrating Christmas this week, so we don’t really want to be thinking about Halloween, do we? So, so I took the Halloween stuff out and so we’re going to listen back to how we talked about what it was like to celebrate Christmas in Italy and as a newly formed expat. And then after this little listen back, we’re going to come back and reflect on some of the things that we said in this episode. So enjoy.Â
Listening back to Episode 3: HOLIDAYS
Hello, I’m Katy Sewall.Â
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
Back with you again in Rome. I am here for a limited period of time, staying for about a year. And Tiffany, how long have you been here?
Tiffany
Almost 10 years.
Katy
Almost 10 years. So we’re getting together to talk about what it’s like to live abroad for a short time and a long time. And I don’t know if you can hear that, but they’re setting up the pizza tables outside my window. That’s something I don’t usually hear back at home. Are you used to sounds like that, people scraping tables in and out?
Tiffany
And I think I’ve gotten completely used to it because I remember the apartment where I live now. I feel like I used to be kept awake until very late when they would move the tables inside at the end of the night, but I don’t hear it anymore.
Katy
Yeah, it’s a very loud city. The city. And this is the first time that I will have celebrated all three major American holidays, Halloween, Thanksgiving, and Christmas, in a foreign country. So there you go.
Tiffany
Very, very big deal.
Katy
It would be a bigger deal if people in Rome actually celebrated more than one of those holidays.
Tiffany
Well, no, they’re starting to celebrate Halloween. They are starting. I’ve seen it in the past 10 years. More, many more people celebrate Halloween than they used to. But Thanksgiving, no, they. They know what it is, but obviously it’s an American holiday.
Katy
Well, and then, of course, there’s Christmas, the big holiday. What do you like about the way Italians celebrate Christmas?
Tiffany
My favorite thing is that they don’t start celebrating Christmas in October as they do in America. So you actually get just enough of the holiday flavor to be enjoyable. You don’t get sick of it in America. By December 1st, you’re already sick of Christmas because you’ve been hearing Christmas music for a month and a half. That’s my number one thing. Most Italians put up their Christmas tree on December 8th on the feast of the Immaculate Conception. That’s traditional thing to do, although some people start as early as December 1st, but generally not before December 1st. I also like the importance of the Nativity scene. That’s a very big part of Italian tradition. Because the Nativity scene was born in Naples. Everyone has a Nativity scene in their house until the last. Probably 10 years or maybe 20 years, I would say it was much more common for an Italian to have a Nativity scene than a Christmas tree. Now everyone. Most everyone gets Christmas trees, too. But I think that having a Nativity scene for an Italian is like having a Christmas tree for an American.
Katy
Is there a Nativity scene in any way different than our Nativity scene back in the United States?
Tiffany
Well, in essence, no. I mean, the central figures are all the same, except that in Italy, they tend to get very elaborate, so they tend to be two or three stories high. They’re more like Christmas villages almost than just a simple stall or stable.
Katy
It’s a diorama culture.
Tiffany
Exactly. I kind of actually dislike the way that they have little anachronistic figures there dressed in Renaissance or 1600s costumes, which I don’t quite get into. I want my Nativity figures to look like they’re living in the time of Christ. Other than that, they’re pretty much the same.
Katy
So what do you have in yours?
Tiffany
Okay, let’s see. Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus, the three wise men, a shepherd, a peasant girl, a drummer boy, an angel. And of course, don’t ever forget the ox and the donkey. They cannot be missed.
Katy
Just the other day, I asked you what it was about the ox and the donkey. Because in Piazza Navona there’s a big Christmas festival, and in every booth around the square you can buy little Nativity figures. And if you just want your standard scene where you just want to pay the cheapest amount possible and get your five figures, the figures you get are Mary, Joseph, the baby, and a donkey and an ox, where you think maybe you would get a shepherd or an angel or something like that. So I asked you, what’s with the donkey and the ox?
Tiffany
Well, the donkey and the ox keep Jesus warm. In the Middle Ages or even more recently, you know, in the 17, 1800s, people who were living in very rural situations on farms and things like that, if they had animals living right outside their home, particularly ox and that kind of thing, cows, they would bring them inside during the winter. As long as it was just one or two, they would bring them inside the home in the winter, not only so that the animal would stay warm, but because they would warm the house up. Their body heat would keep the house warm. That’s all I can think of.
Katy
And I love how your husband makes them sit very close to the baby Jesus.
Tiffany
He moved them. I had set up the Nativity scene, and I kind of put the animals in the background. And he said, no, they have to be right at first. He put them in front of Joseph and Mary, and I said, wait a second. Put them behind Joseph and Mary, but still close. That’s okay.
Katy
Well, it’s interesting because of the friends I’ve made here. The majority of them are from America, and most of them are here very temporarily. And we’ve been talking with them and found that in the lead up to the Christmas season, one of the things that they kept saying over and over and over again was, I’m just not in the mood yet. I’m just not in the mood yet. There was something missing about the way Italians did Christmas that was leaving a hole with the way that the Americans felt about the holiday. True for me and for Derek, my husband, part of the problem, I think, for us, the Christmas trees here were ridiculously expensive. A tree smaller than the Charlie Brown Christmas tree, smaller was €10. €10. And I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. What, from your experience, do you think is missing for Americans when it comes to Christmas here?
Tiffany
I think perhaps the excessive commercialism. I know that Italy is a commercial place too. People here love their fashion and they love Their cars. I’m not saying they’re not materialistic people as well, but I don’t think it’s at the same level as America. You walk into an American shopping mall and you are inundated. It’s like pure Christmas cheer being pumped into your veins. There are giant Christmas ornaments hanging from the ceiling everywhere. Bing Crosby is singing from every corner these amazingly beautiful, wonderful songs that just make you feel like you want to spend all your money on the people that you love. That’s the genius of American marketing. They can make you believe that you want things that you don’t need, that you need things that you don’t need. I’ve experienced this whenever I go to the States, especially if I’m in a place like Southern California where my sister lives. I walk down the street and I look in those shop windows, and I literally think to myself for a moment before I stop myself, I need that. I need that. I really need that because of the way it’s presented to me. In Italy, they don’t know how to market. You have to go out and look for stuff if you want to buy it. It doesn’t just sort of happen upon you the way it does in the States. And I think that that whole sort of going shopping and having all that kind of excitement when you’re thinking about the person and when they’re going to open your present. And I mean, I’m not saying that that’s bad, but it is lacking here to that extent. I mean, people still do buy Christmas presents. But I’ve noticed the average Italian family, I mean, at least from what I’ve seen with my husband’s family, they buy their children one present each. Even the small children, if the child still believes in Santa Claus, they usually get one present from Santa Claus. And there’s no stockings either.
Katy
That’s the best part.
Tiffany
I know. I mean, actually, maybe other families have stockings. I don’t know. But my husband’s family don’t use stockings. But the point is, you get a very small number of Christmas presents, which is actually probably a smarter way to go about it, as opposed to buying stuff that people are never going to use or just return. But I think that that sort of giddy feeling of being in a shopping mall and going all out and hearing Bing Crosby, and that is, I think, what is missing.
Katy
Yeah, that was what we were suspecting, was that it was the commercialism. And then we thought, well, what kind of a commentary is that? That it’s the commercialism of the holiday that’s making it so that you’re not in the right spirit. That’s a pretty sad statement. And hopefully. Hopefully that’s not entirely true.
Tiffany
No, I’m sure it isn’t. I’m sure it isn’t. But I think maybe it just comes a little bit later. It comes maybe right before Christmas time, which is really, you know, when it should be. I mean, if you think about it, at least from a liturgical point of view, the lead up to Christmas, the Advent period, supposed to be very reflective. And the idea wasn’t to go to any parties pre Christmas. You would only party after Christmas. And the 12 days of Christmas start on Christmas, and they lead to epiphany. So that was when the partying was happening and the lead up was actually the sort of sober, reflective spirit. So maybe you’re actually doing it right.
Katy
Well, that’s a good point. But I think it’s other things that are missing too. You can reflect on this also. It’s. It’s the little, tiny things that are missing that you traditionally do every year, whether it’s be with your family or in the same city you’ve lived in for a period of time. For me, one of my big things is that I really like to go out late at night and walk around neighborhoods that are particularly decorated with Christmas lights. And they do decorate the trees here. But because everybody’s home is away from the street or up above the street, it’s not the same. Where you’re seeing one family has the giant nativity scene in the front yard, the next family is Santa all over the house, you know. But I used to like to do those long walks and then watch it build over the month, where it starts at just a few houses, and then as it gets closer, there’s more and more and more. And I would go out every single night. That own personal tradition makes it seem different to me this year. And obviously it’s different because I’m in Rome. But I don’t know, were there any traditions you had to let go by the wayside when you decided to move here?
Tiffany
It’s been so long I almost can’t remember.
Katy
You’ve made all your own new traditions?
Tiffany
I guess so. I mean, that’s the. That’s the thing. You do make new traditions, and you guys could make a new tradition here that then you could take back to the States with you and do there, which would be really great.
Katy
Well, we’re trying to do that. What do you think it should be? Should the tradition we take home be?
Tiffany
The thing about the witch The Befana could be.
Katy
Tell us about the Befana.
Tiffany
I don’t know the whole story, but Befana is a good witch who brings children candy on the day of the epiphany. This is somehow supposed to reflect the three wise men bringing presents to Jesus. Although I’m not sure how the leap was made between three wise men and a witch. Your husband actually had an interesting theory on it.
Katy
Yes, it’s something having to do with Italian that Befana means epiphany.
Tiffany
Befana could be. No, but he said something else about how when the three wise men went looking for Jesus, they asked her to come and she said no. I can’t remember why she said that.
Katy
She didn’t want to come. They came and stopped for directions, and they said, well, would you like to come along with us? And she had no interest in doing that. And then somewhere along the line, she starts to feel regretful that she didn’t go. I think there’s a flash of light in the night that sort of announces that this is something incredible. And she thinks, well, I should have gone. And so she gathers up these toys from her child who has died, I guess that’s in her house, and decide she’s going to go try to find the Christ child. But no matter how hard she looks, she can’t find him. And so instead she passes out gifts to children along the way of the gifts she’s trying to give to the Christ child.
Tiffany
That’s actually quite, quite a pretty story. I like it.
Katy
Is it?
Tiffany
I like it. I like it. So you could take that tradition back.
Katy
But what would we do with that tradition? Does anybody actually dress up as her? And should I run around the neighborhood cackling and passing out gifts to children on epiphany?
Tiffany
No, but you could. You could get stockings and because they. I don’t know if this is the original tradition or if this is how it’s morphed. I said a moment ago that they don’t use stockings, but it was actually quite, not quite true. The truth is they use stockings, but they use them on epiphany. And it’s Befana who brings the stuff. And it’s only candy. It’s candy if you’re good. If you’re bad, it’s coal. And I’ve gotten coal before.
Katy
From who?
Tiffany
From an old roommate.
Katy
Real coal? Like the burning kind of coal?
Tiffany
No, it was actually sugar painted black to look like coal. But the message came through.
Katy
That’s great. That’s great. So you had to Build the traditions over time. What’s the tradition that you and your husband have that you particularly like?
Tiffany
I really like that we always have our nativity scene because a couple of years we haven’t always had Christmas trees. Two years ago we didn’t have one, but we always have our nativity scene. We get that out every year. So I think that’s a great tradition. And I really like the food traditions. In Italy, for example, on Christmas Eve you eat a meal with seven different types of fish. That’s the tradition anyway. My mother in law is a very good cook, so she generally goes all out and we have cod and shrimp and fried sardines and pasta with clams, all sorts of different types of fish and it’s a great meal.
Katy
Do you have any idea why. Why fish on Christmas Eve?
Tiffany
I could be way off this as a guess with the idea of not eating meat. I mean, I know it’s a good Friday thing and a Friday thing in general, but the only thing I could think of was it was sort of maybe a remembrance of that in some way. It’s the only thing that would make sense to me.
Katy
What does your mother think about the fact that you’re never home for Christmas anymore? Let me ask this first, before we get to your mother. Have you gone back since you moved here 10 years ago for Christmas?
Tiffany
Yes, I have. I have gone back twice, I think.
Katy
So what does she think about the fact that she doesn’t get to spend Christmas with you or that you don’t get to spend Christmas with your niece and nephew?
Tiffany
Well, as far as not being with her, I think she’s used to it by now. It’s been almost 10 years in fact.
Katy
She loved it.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Tiffany
She spent no presents. Great. No, I think she’s used to. I think obviously she misses me. I’m. I miss my family as a whole. I don’t miss necessarily one person over another, but I have a very large family. It’s a divided family, but I have a lot of sisters and stepbrothers and stepsisters and many, many nieces and nephews. I miss the whole family atmosphere of being together. A whole bunch of people, a whole bunch of little kids running around, amazing food, the music, the fireplace. I do miss that. I can’t deny it. I really would like to take my husband back for Christmas. He’s never come, so eventually we will do that, but it’s. It’s difficult to organize.
Katy
Yeah, that’s another thing. There is no. We have no fireplace. We have no chestnuts roasting. On an open fire. Although you can buy chestnuts in the street here.
Tiffany
Yeah, I’ve never. I never ate a single chestnut, roasted or not, in the United States. And since I’ve been here, I have them every Christmas.
Katy
Yeah, that’s so true. I’ve tried making them, too.
Tiffany
There’s a new. There is your new Christmas tradition. There is one of many new Christmas traditions. So from now on, when you’re back in the States, you will roast chestnuts on Christmas, at least in a pan.
Katy
Do you remember that in the first year, was it the same that we’re going through that? It’s a challenge to not think of all the things that are missing or to try to infuse. What other American Christmas film can we watch tonight? You know, where you’re trying to pull all those traditions into a place that doesn’t have them? It’s kind of a question.
Tiffany
- I definitely did go through that. And I think my first Christmas here was exceptionally difficult because I was single as well. So I was not only living in a foreign country. I’d been here the same amount of time that you’ve been here now, about three months. And I was completely single and I knew almost no one. I had a really hard time meeting people when I first moved here. So I had a couple of friends, and luckily they were also expats and didn’t have family in town. So I, you know, I got this sort of sympathy invite, and I ended up spending Christmas Eve with people that I did not know hardly at all. I. I think you just, in those situations, you just kind of, instead of dwelling on, oh, it’s Christmas, what’s everybody doing back home? You know, you think, okay, this is a day like any other. I’m doing something. It’s not going to be the best Christmas of my life, but I’m going to enjoy it for what it is, and next Christmas will be better.
Katy
When you think back of the best Christmases in your life, have you had one of them in Italy?
Tiffany
Yes. The very best Christmas. I had to think about that for a second. But the very best Christmas I had was in Italy. It was the day my husband proposed to be.
Katy
Oh, he proposed on Christmas. I didn’t remember that. Bad friend.
Tiffany
No. I probably never told you. Well, we actually coincidentally told each other we loved each other for the first time on Christmas. Not the same one, but. So Christmas was already special for us for that reason, which might be why he chose to ask me on Christmas. So I think it is pretty difficult to top that, even though it was.
Katy
A very simple proposal.
Tiffany
I mean, there was not an American style like jumbo jet or, you know, jumbo screen or jumbo anything, really.
Katy
I think that might be a stereotype.
Tiffany
But, yeah, okay, perhaps. But it was nevertheless very wonderful, obviously. So I guess that’s got to be the best Christmas.
Katy
Tell us what he did.
Tiffany
Well, it’s very. It’s very sappy, so bear with us or turn off the podcast. Claudio, my husband, we went together to mass on Christmas Day in the afternoon, to the church where he had always gone as a boy, the church where he had been an altar boy and where he had had his first communion and all of that. At the end of the mass, they were playing Silent Night, and everyone was going up to kiss the statue of baby Jesus, which is what they do here, because here you don’t bring out baby Jesus until actually Christmas Eve. Technically, you should have the nativity scene empty. And then you bring out baby Jesus on Christmas Eve. Well, this was Christmas Day, and they had a doll the size of an actual baby, and everyone was going up to kiss the foot or the hand of baby Jesus. And he turned to me and he said, this is a church where I grew up. This is where I had my first communion, where I was an altar boy. And that statue of the Madonna. Okay, this is. I was at the time a non Catholic, so the idea of praying to a statue still, to me, as someone raised Protestant, is a little bit odd. But he said, that statue of Mary is where I said all my prayers as a little boy. And one thing that I prayed for, whether subconsciously or not, was to someday find the person that I was supposed to be with. And that’s why I decided that I had to ask you here.
Katy
That is so cute. Are you in the line to kiss the baby when this happens?
Tiffany
No, we were still sitting down.
Katy
Okay, that’s wonderful. So what was your response?
Tiffany
Well, the truth is, he didn’t really give me time to answer. He said, you know, he finally got to the end of the sentence and said, so this is where I’ve decided to ask you to marry me. And then he just sort of hugged me. And I thought, are you going to, like, actually ask me? And of course, I said yes right away. And the interesting thing is that he gave me a ring that was actually my own ring, because I knew that I’m one of those people who, you know, I wouldn’t trust anyone to pick out an engagement ring for me. I’m just too picky. So he knew this about me, and so I’D given him. I had lent him a ring that had been my greatest great grandmother’s wedding ring that I sometimes wore around on a chain around my neck. I gave it to him. When we first sort of mentioned that we knew we were going in that direction, he said, what am I going to do? I can’t propose to you without an engagement ring. And I said, you know, just use this. If it turns out that you decide not to ask me, just make sure to give it back. So he proposed to me with that ring. But what he didn’t know was that the date of that ring, the date of the wedding that was inscribed on the inside of that ring was December 25, 1861.
Katy
So Christmas is a special day for you?
Tiffany
Yeah, I think, Chris, I think the actual holiday of Christmas is very special. The whole season around it. I think I agree with you. You don’t get into it as much here as you do back in the States.
Katy
There’s no ramp up. There’s no holiday leading to holiday leading to holiday.
Tiffany
That’s very true.
Katy
Do they make a bigger deal about New Year’s here?
Tiffany
I think it would be about the same.
Katy
The worst holiday.
Tiffany
The worst holiday ever, basically, when you feel like you have to go out because if you don’t go out, you’re a loser. Yeah, it’s the same.
Katy
All right, well, we have to leave it there the next time we talk. I do want to get into this, the notion of homesickness, which comes up during the holiday season when you’re abroad for the first time. I think a lot of people get homesick, whether they’re stationed overseas in a war zone, or whether they’re here like me for a year, or here like you for 10 years. So let’s get into that next week, shall we?
Tiffany
Let’s do it.
Katy
Okay. Until then, this is The Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Reflecting on Episode 003
Katy
All right, so there you have it. The very third episode of this show that was ever created, a reflection on the holidays and holidays in Italy. And as a brand new expat. What do you think, Tiffany? I wrote down some notes of stuff I wanted to remark upon, but was there anything that really jumped out at you?
Tiffany
Well, there is, actually, which is that things have changed, believe it or not.
Katy
Again, I was going to ask you.
Tiffany
Yeah, because when we taped that, of course, I had been living in Rome for 10 years, and I think it was when we were talking about Halloween, which is not in the episode that you just posted, but I did mention wow. Things have changed in the past 10 years since I moved here, and things have changed again. I think. Honestly, I think it’s social media. I really do. I think that being on social media, you see how other cultures celebrate holidays. And there are certain cultures in certain countries that are sort of natural leaders, you know, And I think America is for. As far as culture and pop culture goes, America is probably one of the biggest natural leaders in the world. And people tend to, you know, from all over the world copy the movies that they make and the music that they make and stuff like that. So I don’t think that’s surprising, but I really think that’s what it is. I think that people are on social media so much, and they’re seeing that people are setting up their tree in the United States around Thanksgiving time. And of course, in Italy, there is no Thanksgiving. So there was no clear break, you know, to say, okay, the fall. And the fall holidays are over. Now it’s Christmas. And so Italians, I mean, I am. I have. This is the very, very first year that I have really noticed. At least maybe it’s been happening. And I just haven’t noticed that people are putting up their Christmas trees in November. I mean, just 10 years ago, that was unheard of. I mean, it was December 8th and.
Katy
Just 10 years ago. Heart. Like, so many people didn’t even have a Christmas tree.
Tiffany
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t say so many people. I think families tended to have them. Maybe like single people or couples without kids maybe didn’t. But. Yeah, it wasn’t as universal as it was in the States. Now. It’s not only universal, it’s. I mean, Aurelio was, you know, he was really on my case this year from about mid November. When are we putting up the tree? You know, or. Actually, to be honest, it was like as soon as Halloween was over, as soon as it was November. Is it Christmas here? Is it Christmas? I said, no, Christmas season. The Christmas season starts in a month. He’s like, no, but we gotta, you know, and he starts to see the lights going up on shops, you know, and an occasional balcony. Can we put up the tree? Can we put up the tree? I was like, no, we’re waiting till December. And I, you know, I wasn’t going to make the poor child wait until December 8th. And even I like to have the tree up from the beginning of the month. So I said, you know, it happened to be that December 1st was a Sunday, which is perfect. It’s the only day that we really have time to do it because it takes forever. And so I said, okay, we’re going to do December 1st. No, my friend, my, my friend so and so has his tree up. My friend so and so has history up. Why can’t we have our tree up? And I was like, who are all these Italian kids who have their tree up on November 20th? This is ridiculous. And I think I came to the conclusion that that’s what it is. It’s people on social media seeing that American families have their tree up already. And so they are following suit.
Give your podcast hosts a present this year!Â
Interesting. Katy popping in real quick. The holidays are about giving to those you love. And if you love this show, I have a request for you, a Christmas holiday request. With the turn of the year, The Bittersweet Life always gets walloped with the biggest bills of the year, the annual bills. We’re talking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars of things that come due annually. We would love your help tackling these bills as we enter 2025. If you love this show and you want to give us a Christmas present, please join us on Patreon at http://www.patreon.com/thebittersweetlifepodcast or give us a one time donation through PayPal. You can find links in our show notes. You can also find it at http://www.thebittersweetlife.net And one thing that we really, really, really need in the new year is a traveling microphone. Whenever I travel abroad, whenever we record roam episodes together in person, I am using a shotgun microphone. That shotgun microphone now is well over 10 years. I’ve had it since before this show was even born. And it is sounding pretty rough, which means it’s got to be replaced. If you really want to hear what Rome sounds like, I could really use donations from those of you who love this show, who appreciate it, who want to give back to pitch in and help me buy that microphone. Again, like I said, one time donation at paypal.com or through a monthly sponsorship at http://www.patreon.com/thebittersweetlifepodcast Those donations have kept this show going for 10 years and your donations are what will keep it going moving forward. We are absolutely so, so, so very grateful to you. And if you don’t have the means to donate or chip in in any way right now, especially around the holidays, tell a friend about us. Help spread the word. We need to keep this audience growing to also keep the show going. So happy holidays. Thank you so much for considering us in your holiday gift giving. We appreciate you so much and we hope that this show brings a lot of joy and entertainment into your life. Back to the show.Â
Katy
This is a totally different separate point, but I just learned this fact that I want to share with you. I don’t know because I remember when I lived there and Derek and I were looking around to see like, could we actually get any kind of Christmas tree to put in this house? We couldn’t. I mentioned one in the show where I find one that’s like basically lower than my kneecap that cost $10 and that was one of the only Christmas trees I saw for sale the entire month I was there. But would you say that most people are using artificial trees or are they using real trees? Because I don’t remember there would say real trees all over the place.
Tiffany
Yeah, I would say like 95% of people are using artificial trees. People see it as weird to have a real tree. Like they’re like, why, you know, why would you dig up a tree?
Katy
You know, but you don’t dig up a tree.
Tiffany
Well, you don’t personally, but for somebody grows a tree, I suppose they, they grow them for that purpose. But you know, why would you steal a tree from nature when you can just, you know, every year put the same one up and you don’t have to pay for it. It’s just, you know, you paid once and it’s just there. And I was very against the artificial tree when we started with that, which was probably our second time putting up a tree. I used to buy trees even when I was, you know, single, living alone. And it was a pain because here in Italy they don’t cut the tree and there’s no Christmas tree stand that like I remember when I was a kid, you know.
Katy
Yeah.
Tiffany
I don’t know how it works, but you kind of screw it in there and then you fill it up with water. There’s no Christmas tree stand. It’s. You buy the tree and it’s in a pot like it’s a plant.
Katy
Uh huh. So then you have that tree for the rest of your life.
Tiffany
Well, people do replant them, but it’s very, very rare to get them to survive. It doesn’t look the same, I feel like for some reason because it’s so far, like the branches, the lowest branches are so far off the ground that it doesn’t, it doesn’t create, it doesn’t give the sort of same aspect. And so when I finally agreed to do the artificial, I’ve come to appreciate it.
Katy
Now here is the fun fact that I learned just recently is that Queen Victoria is often credited for Making the Christmas tree idea popular worldwide because. Yes, because she, I believe it was her cousin, comes from the back, like, Germanic background. And so they had a Christmas tree in their house. And then it got publicized in the paper, and it was made into etchings. And then people in America saw it, and everyone was like, what is this? This seems like a cool thing. And then all of a sudden, it wasn’t like the Christmas tree had never been heard of before. But all of a sudden, people, like they do in Italy now, had them in their house. Like, they mostly had it in their house, as if it was a tradition everyone had always done. But I did learn this year that Victoria actually had two artificial trees. So if you have an artificial tree and you think, well, this isn’t the way it’s supposed to be done, I mean, the woman that made it popular had two trees that were fake. So I thought that was pretty interesting. Very good to know.
Tiffany
That’s very good to know.
Katy
Real and artificial were there from the very beginning of its popularity.
Tiffany
Good fact, Katy.
Katy
Good fact. All right. Well, we don’t want to go on too long. So here’s another thing I noticed that has changed. Where we were talking about the ramp up in America, specifically, you talk about going to a shopping mall, and that now seems as antiquated an idea. And I don’t know if that was Covid or the advent of everything being so online. It doesn’t feel antiquated to me to go shopping where there’s a bunch of small shops in some neighborhood in Seattle. I’ll definitely go Christmas shopping in, like, little neighborhoods full of small shops. But the idea of actually going into a mall is so far from at least my own personal reality at this point, that it’s just not a part of the Christmas season for me anymore, you know? And in fact, this morning I was doing some Christmas shopping, and where was I doing it? Online, of course. Right. Because I’m like, in the midst of working, and then I’m like, oh, yeah, I wanted to order that thing before it’s too late. You know, then you’re like, online looking for the best ones, reading the reviews, all that stuff. And I mean, so I think that actually really has changed also in that period of time.
Tiffany
Do you think that that’s a pretty universal thing in the States? Like, do you think if you go to a shopping mall around Christmas time, it’s going to be way less crowded than it would have been 10 years ago?
Katy
I think so.
Tiffany
At the same time, yeah.
Katy
I mean, it probably depends on how big your city or town is, you know, or even if it has a mall. I mean, Seattle had, at one point, tons of malls. In Seattle proper, I think all but one have closed. I don’t think they’re there anymore. One of them. One of them got remade into a hockey arena. So I don’t know. Well, here’s another thing I really wanted to comment on because we do the hypothetical talk through of, like, what new tradition will take home from Italy? Or you’re like, okay, what is Katy gonna take back with her? And we talk about La Befana, the Christmas witch. And I wrote down, nope, didn’t take that home. And then we talked about chestnuts roasting on an open fire. Nope, didn’t take that home either. I also made a note here to ask you if you ever have taken Claudio home for Christmas. But don’t answer that yet, because you say, oh, yeah, I’m gonna take him home to the States for Christmas one year. All right, don’t answer yet, though. I was gonna say, though, the only thing, the lasting thing is the idea of the cow and the donkey and where they are in the presepi. In the manger scene, that’s an ox. Sorry, the ox. Sorry. In America, I still think of it as a cow, but okay, the ox and the donkey and their position in the manger scene has been the one thing that we have changed. And what’s really funny is we do have an Italian style manger scene now where it’s like a little town, like a little Italian town. And we have the more traditional ones that you see. And we do the same Italian thing. Like, baby Jesus isn’t there. The shepherds aren’t showing up. Nobody’s showing up. Until their place in the story happens.
Tiffany
So right now, the three kings don’t.
Tiffany
Come out until Epiphany, Right?
Katy
So right now it’s just like a village, an Italian village with townspeople. Like, you have townspeople. We have townspeople with townspeople. And Mary and Joseph. They’re still getting there, though. Derek has them journeying across toward the town. And who’s with them but the ox and the donkey.
Tiffany
Oh, I love it.
Katy
And he’s having them move every day toward the town. They’re almost there now because, you know, here we are, we’re at Christmas. Christmas is coming right up. But they’re almost there. But. So I thought that was funny, that that is really the only lasting change is putting the cow. Sorry, it’s not a cow. The ox and the donkey closer to the action.
Tiffany
I love it. I love It. And I love how. Like that.
Tiffany
I don’t know. It’s such a small detail, but it stuck with you.
Katy
It did. I think just because it’s so funny and weird. Like, the one thing I. When listening back to that episode, the one thing I distinctly remembered from when we recorded it all these years later was the moment when Claudio puts them in front of the. In front of the. In front of the Holy family. I almost called them the royal family in front of the Holy Family, you know, And I thought that detail. And you were like, okay, come on, honey. Like. Like, let’s at least be able to see Mary and Joseph and not have this giant ox in front of them. But I.
Tiffany
That’s funny, because I had forgotten that. And listening back to the episode earlier today, I remembered how much I laughed at that at the time.
Katy
So what is the answer? Have you taken Claudio home to the States for Christmas in the last 10 years?
Tiffany
I haven’t.
Tiffany
Not for lack of wanting to. He never gets Christmas off. If he were to take Christmas, we would not be able to take a long vacation at any other time of the year unless we took the long vacation at, like, you know, over the Christmas, like, you know, like. Like three weeks over Christmas, which we could do. We could, but. Because when we. You know, when we go to the States, we. We want to go for at least two weeks, you know, maybe. Or maybe three. And so if we want that time, we can’t split it up between different times of the year.
Katy
Right.
Tiffany
And so it’s just been. It’s just been really hard. But. Well, I mean, I’m hoping that his work reality will be changing eventually, because I really, really do want to take him. Last year, we went home for Easter. Went home. I. Never that expression anymore. We went to my. My mom’s house in Arizona, which has never been my home, but we went to her place for Easter, which was. Which was nice. And we might do that again this year because he has so many. There are so many holidays that the Vatican gives over Easter, that even just taking a. And then there’s like, a couple of other random holidays mixed in there. Like the first of May is a holiday that if you take just a few days off, you can actually stretch it out quite a ways. So we’re probably gonna be in the States over Easter again this year.
Katy
All right, well. And I will remind people who are newer to the show that Claudio works at the Vatican. That’s why. That’s why it matters what the Vatican’s schedule is. He works in the Vatican museums. Okay, well, is there anything else you wanted to remark on before we go enjoy holidays?
Tiffany
I would say is that I do think there is. There’s more commercialism in Italy than there was 10 years ago. And again, that might just be that I have a kid that I, you know, shop for for Christmas. You know, it’s not just like, oh, could I buy my boyfriend a gift, you know, and that, and finish it at that. It’s like my mother in law, my father in law, my son, you know, I got the school gift for the, for the, for the teacher at school.
Katy
Right.
Tiffany
For the p. You know, and so maybe that’s why I’m just. I’m just more actively shopping, Chris. Doing Christmas shopping. So I see it more, but I feel like it’s been ramped up. I feel like the Christmas decorations in the city are like way, like they’re way stepped up from 10 years ago. Like 10 years ago. It’s like we’d be lucky if they lit up Via del Corso. And of course, they always had the Christmas trees, but now it’s the big shops, like, you know, the big expensive shops are now like shelling out tons of money and putting up lots of fancy decoration. And the Christmas tree in St. Peter’s for like two years in a row is incredible. The light, they have a light show on the tree is very cool. I’ll try to post a video of it.
Katy
Okay. Yeah, but. Yeah, yeah, interesting.
Tiffany
Who knows? I do feel like there’s more of a buildup than there used to be.
Katy
Yeah. And do you enjoy that as a person from the United States?
Tiffany
I do like the buildup. Yeah, of course.
Katy
I mean, it’s fun. It’s fun.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Tiffany
It’s funny.
Tiffany
You have to get, get into the spirit and.
Katy
Yeah.
Tiffany
And the only thing is there is nothing going on is in terms of performances. My mom is in town right now over Christmas, and I so wanted to take her and my stepfather to a concert. I wanted that to be our present to them because they do not want material gifts.
Katy
Right.
Tiffany
Which is understandable. There was nothing. The, the sim. You know, the, the Santa Cecilia Orchestra, which is like the best orchestra in town. They’re like on a tour right over Christmas. The other sort of second tier major orchestra. They’re not doing anything. The only things going on that I could find besides one random Christmas concert that was like on the 14th, before she, she arrived, was the Gospel festival, which they do every year. But almost all the tickets are sold out. Like they were sold out, like weeks and weeks. In advance. And the Nutcracker, which I love. Same deal, almost no seeds available. And I just thought, how in the world, in a major world capital, can there be so few things going on, performances going on at Christmas time? You know, I just. I feel like Christmas is a time that you go to a show. Right. It doesn’t even have to be a Christmas show. Like, it has to. You know, even just going to, like, a church and hearing live music in a church, like, I just. There’s nothing.
Katy
Wow.
Tiffany
So frustrating.
Katy
Interesting. And here in Seattle, we’re bursting at the seams with Christmas stuff. Derek and I have been to so many performances. You know, we almost have regular seats in certain theaters. It’s been ridiculous. I’m talking, like, for the month of December. He and I have probably seen two things a week. Isn’t that nice?
Tiffany
So nice.
Tiffany
Yeah, that’s very nice.
Katy
And that’s like, not even scratching the tip of the iceberg of everything that would be available. You know, if you wanted to see everything in that was about Christmas or the holidays in the city, it would be impossible. I don’t think you could see everything.
Tiffany
Well, I’m jealous because there’s nothing going.
Katy
On in Rome right now. Well, come on over.
Tiffany
As far as next year, as far as live performances. Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe. We’ll see.
Katy
All right. All right. Well, we should leave it there. We did end that episode with a preview of us talking about that we were going to be addressing the idea of homesickness. If that intrigued you, go back and find that episode. It’s episode number four of this show, which. That would be 004, which is unbelievable. But, yeah, as far as I know, it probably holds up. And I do want to mention that we’re going to try something in the new year, and we want to hear from you and to see if you like it, we’re going to start releasing an episode every Friday that is a throwback episode, basically an episode from sometime in the past. We’re going to just throw an old episode up there because, I mean, I think you agree that a lot of these shows in the topics really hold up, and some of them we’ve never addressed again. So we’re going to kind of revisit some of those great conversations and some of those great guests from all those years ago. And we’d love to hear if you enjoy having that extra episode every week. Yeah. And I guess we’ll leave it there. That can be our holiday gift to you. Thank you for all that you’ve done to give back to this show over the last year. And I hope, wherever you are, that it’s a very happy holiday.
Tiffany
Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, happy Hanukkah, and to all, a good night by.
Katy
Hey, everyone, it’s Katy in Rome. If you like the show, spread the word, tell a friend and visit our website http://www.thebittersweetlife.net
