On Episode 570: An Irish-American Story, Katy interviews actor, filmmaker, and author Edward Burns about his debut novel A Kid from Marlboro Road on the stage of Town Hall Seattle. Tune in for a conversation about storytelling, memory, and the transition from screen to page.
Acclaimed filmmaker and actor Edward Burns steps into the world of fiction with his debut novel, A Kid from Marlboro Road. Set in the 1970s, this coming-of-age story draws inspiration from Burns’s own Irish-American childhood on Long Island, capturing the complexities of family, loss, and growing up.
Edward Burns, known for films like The Brothers McMullen and Saving Private Ryan, has built a career telling stories of Irish-American life. Now, he brings that same depth and authenticity to the page. In this episode, he shares the inspiration behind his novel, how his filmmaking background influenced his writing, and what it was like to revisit his own past through fiction.
This event was presented by Town Hall Seattle in September 2024. Thanks to Town Hall Seattle for presenting Edward Burns and allowing The Bittersweet Life to record and re-air this conversation.
You can listen to the episode right here, or find the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, and elsewhere.
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Five key takeaways from the episode:
- Actor and filmmaker Edward Burns discusses his first novel, A Kid from Marlboro Road, which is based on his childhood memories but fictionalized, blending real experiences with invented elements.
- Burns talks about his writing process, including how he writes daily, deals with writer’s block, and draws inspiration from his family’s stories and his own experiences.
- He reflects on his career in filmmaking, including lessons learned from working with Steven Spielberg and how he approaches directing actors.
- Burns discusses the themes of nostalgia, sadness, and the bittersweet nature of life that permeate his work, particularly in relation to his Irish-American background.
- He shares insights into his creative legacy, focusing on his consistent portrayal of specific Irish-American working-class experiences that resonate universally.
Full Episode Transcript:
Katy
Welcome to Rome. This is the Bittersweet Life with Katy Sewell and Edward Burns Parks. Hello. This is the Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewell. Today, a special episode of the show recorded live at Town hall in Seattle, where I had the pleasure of talking to Edward Burns on September 25 last year. Edward Burns has made 14 feature films as a writer, director, actor, and has starred in many films including Saving Private Ryan and his very first movie, The Brothers McMullen, which premiered at the 1995 Sundance Film Festival, winning the Grand Jury Prize. The film also won Best first feature, the 1996 Independent Spirit Awards. If you look him up, I am sure you will recognize him and I’m also sure that you will recognize the sound of his voice. It is very recognizable. I met him at Town hall in Seattle to talk about his very first novel titled A Kid from Marlboro Road, based on his childhood memories and the Irish American communities of the Bronx and Long Island. I loved spending time with him. He is a great storyteller and many themes in the conversation that you are about to hear shaped my thinking for weeks to come. I hope you enjoy.
Edward Burns
Guys, how are you? How you doing?
Katy
All right. So we are going to talk a little bit about the movie industry, but I want to go hard on the book because you don’t get to write a book every day. So I want to start with talking about character, voice. So this book is written from the perspective of a 12 year old boy and I really feel like you capture not only the sound of a younger voice, but the way that they would observe the world. I actually wrote an example of your voice down. This starts with his mother talking. She says, but you have your own radio in your own room. Listen to Jean shepherd in there. She tells me, but she doesn’t understand that it’s more fun to listen with her so that we can laugh together and talk about the parts of the story we liked best. It very much feels like a younger kid is telling us this story. So I was wondering, how do you approach voice in your writing? I mean, you can take it for screen or for books, but yeah.
Edward Burns
So I mean, I’ll start with screenplays and then I’ll get to, specifically to this. You know, it’s when writing dialogue, I always kind of speak it out loud. It’s almost like it should have like sort of it should feel like lyrics. You know, I like, I try to find the characters have like a lyrical like cadence to the, to the speech. So that’s something I do. And then my longtime Producing partner whose name will probably come up a few times tonight. This guy, Aaron Lubin. Been working together for 25 years. When I finish a draft of a script, he and I will then read it out loud and we’ll play the different parts. And that is so that I can just. And he’s not an actor and he doesn’t try to act, but, you know, I’m just trying to hear, do the voices sound authentic? Does it sound like the way people speak? And so I’m just going to apologize now. I have a little bit of like adhd, so I’m going to bounce around all over the place. And please remind me to get back to what the hell we were talking about. That’s just how my brain works. Because that just triggered a thought which has now gone, all right, so, but anyhow, I’ll just focus on the book then.
Katy
You’re reading out loud.
Edward Burns
Reading out loud. Oh, yeah, yeah. So when I made my first film, the Brothers McMullen, the reason I wanted to make that film, one of the initial reasons, was that I was 23 when I wrote the script. Whatever movies were coming out in the early 90s about, like the Gen X kids, I didn’t think they sounded authentic. They did not sound like real kids who were either, you know, from 19 to 25. The way I thought me and my friends spoke, my ear was always attuned to how people speak and does that sound honest? So to this kid, the 12 year old, you know, I wrote this book during COVID At that time when we were sort of sequestered away in our house. My son was 14, so he had just kind of moved through the chapter that the protagonist in this book is going through. I coach my son’s AAU basketball team for years, so I spent a lot of time in an SUV with 6, 12 and 13 year old kids. 3 hours into upstairs New York listening to them BS in the backseat of the car. And, you know, they’re at that age where, you know, they’re still little kids, but they’re taking that step towards feeling it out a little bit, you know, So a lot of that was helpful to have their voices in my head as I started to create this character.
Katy
But then of course, you have to translate the kids of today to like the kids of the 60s.
Edward Burns
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I knew, you know, I mean, like, I’m sure a lot of people, like, you know, I can remember amazing details about my childhood and I can’t remember where I was yesterday. So for whatever reason, like, you Know, it’s a beautiful thing that happens when you’re either writing a screenplay or, in this case, writing the book. Like, when you just sort of, like, surrender to the process. And I typically write every day. I try to write anywhere between three to five hours. And I have days where it’s really going well and I’ll just quickly eat something. And I know I’m in a groove, and I want to go back for another two hours just because I like being in sort of the fantasy world, if you will. You know, the characters will take you on a journey. So with the case of this kid, you know, I had some ideas of what I wanted to explore. But all of these memories from my childhood just kept popping into my. I kept popping out of my subconscious mind and onto the page that I had forgotten about.
Katy
So that’s great. Well, so since we were talking about screenwriting also, do you. This is your first novel. What was the difference in how you approached it?
Edward Burns
The big difference was I had not written any form of prose since my senior year of high school. And you know that I will get to that story. I was one of those kids who was blessed by having a teacher who kind of singled me out and said, you know, this is what you should do. Her name was Ms. Maxwell. And I was a disinterested student. I should say. I wasn’t a dummy. But I just. I was completely apathetic about school and grades and things like that. And my senior year of high school, I have, like, a creative writing class, and I write this short story. She hands me the paper back during class, and I get an A. And she goes, I want to talk to you after school. I mean, after class. So I assume that I’m in trouble because anytime a teacher has to talk to you, specifically me, I was probably in trouble. Which is another story that’s in the book when I win the Catholic Daughters of America poetry contest. We gotta get to that. But anyhow, Ms. Maxwell, afterwards, she says, what do you want to do next year? Like, when you go to college? Do you have any idea? And I had no clue. I didn’t give it any thought. And that’s what I said. And she goes, you need to do this. This is what you need to do. You can write sometimes in your life. You’re just lucky enough to have someone like that who. I did one of these a couple of maybe last week at a place in Santa Monica bookstore called Godmothers. They call it Godmothers because it’s like a. They’re paying homage to the women in your life that water and nurture the seed, right? And I had Ms. Maxwell, and so much so that, you know, after that, I became an English major in College. And then 10 years ago, I wrote a book called Independent Ed, which was like a how to in the indie film business. At that time, I think I’d made 11 movies. No two were financed the same way. No two were made the same way. No two had the same distribution deal. So it’s sort of like for kids coming out of film school, like, there is no one path to sort of pursue or chase your dream. But the opening chapter of that book was called, thank you, Ms. Maxwell. And it tells the story. And the story is kind of interesting because that short story, later on in the school year, she says, you know, Edward, at the end of the year, we do this magazine that will. For all the kids who are into the arts. You know, the watercolorists and the photographers and the poets. And I’d love to include your short story. And I said, absolutely not. You’re not putting. I know. And that’s kind of. I gotta tell the other part of the story first. To give you an explanation. When I win this Catholic door, when I’m in the sixth grade, this is in the book. Can I keep rambling like this?
Katy
Please do.
Edward Burns
It’s a problem. I’m sorry, guys. You can imagine what. My poor wife finished the effing story already. So I’m in the sixth grade. A Catholic school, you have to write a poem as an assignment. Had to be about Jesus because it was Catholic school. I write this poem about Jesus. I don’t think anything of it. I hand it in. I get called down to the principal’s office. Sister Paul Francis again. I assume I’m in trouble. She says, I want to talk to you about the poem. I’m like, what did I say in the poem? She goes, we love the poem, and we want to submit it to the Catholic Daughters of America poetry contest. Now, who knew that this existed? Of course, I did not want to participate, but I had no choice. They hand in the poem, and the poem wins first place for Nassau county on Long Island. So this is 1977. I come from a real working class neighborhood. So, like, a couple of terrible things happened after winning that A. I got a trophy that was bigger than any sports trophy I had gotten. So that immediately got tucked into the closet. So none of my friends could see it. Because I knew the ridicule that would follow. Because at school, if you, you know, if you read poetry, wrote Poetry. Won poetry contest. It was a surefire way to kind of get your ass kicked in the hallway, which happened. So the one beautiful thing, though, that came from that was my father, who was a New York City police officer. Like a working class guy, he went the opposite way that in the movies you would think the working class dad would be. When the kid wins a poetry contest, he’s like, edward, you are not taking the cop test when you’re 19. You are going to be a writer. So he was the other godmother in my life, if you will. So thinking back to walking down the hallway of St. Joseph’s and the older kids getting me in headlocks and giving me dead legs and purple nurses for being a poet, when Ms. Maxwell brings this up, I’m like, no, thank you. However, if you want to publish it, why don’t you put it in there without my name on it? We’ll just say author unknown. She says, fine. Agreed. All right. So that’s what we do. Last week of school, all of a sudden, a couple of girls come up to me and they’re like, oh, my God, Eddie, I had no idea you were so sensitive. I’m like, what are you talking about? They’re like this short story about the old man. I was like, what? And then they show me Ms. Maxwell had put my name on it, all right? And that. But that sort of, you know. After that, I was like, oh, maybe there is something to this writing thing. And after that, I was like. Then I was like, I’m gonna be a writer. That’s just what I’m gonna do. Then I go to school. I go as an English major. Again, not a great student. Not paying enough attention. Close to being put on academic probation. If you’re an English major at my school, you could become a film studies minor, watch some old movies, write a paper, get an A. Keep your GPA up, stay in school. All right. I’m down with that program. First class I see in one of the first classes is Billy Wilder’s the Apartment. And my mind is blown. I went to the movies on a Friday night with my friends. I did not ever. I was never exposed to films like this. You know, that balance of, like, really dramatic subject matter, right, with the comedy. I was just sort of. I was blown away. So after class, I said to the professor, I was like, look, I have a question. You keep talking about Billy Wilder. He’s the writer, director. What does that mean? And again, I’m a working class kid from Long Island. I never met anybody in the arts, ever. My community of friends. Like, I had never met an adult who went to college other than probably, you know, my teachers. And maybe not all of them, you know, like, so that I was just not. I wasn’t brought up in that world. And he goes on to explain to me that, well, you know, he has this idea for a movie and he writes the screenplay and then they hire all these people and they come on set and they kind of put on a show. And I’m like, and that’s a job that you can have. Like that can be your life to do that. And he’s like, yeah, yeah. That movie’s, you know, 40 years old. There’s plenty of other people who’ve done it since Light bulb moment. Another godmother. That’s what I’m going to do. All right. So that’s what I decided to do. And I never look back on writing prose or writing a novel. But my freshman year, when I was an English major, I just assumed like, oh, I would write a novel one day. So then when I’m also in film school, another film that I see is Truffaut’s 400 blows, which for me is like the ultimate coming of age film. And when I see that film in film school, I’m like, okay, that is the movie I’m gonna make One day. I’ll tell my story of what it was like to be a 12 year old kid on Long Island. And I thought it was gonna be sort of like the movie about like the last generation of latchkey kids. Like I said, all my friends, our parents, both, everybody worked. So in the summertime, you know, like your parents would leave for work at 7:30 in the morning and they would be home for dinner at 6:30. We didn’t go to summer camp, you know, there weren’t summer programs. We were just like out in the neighborhood doing our thing and you know, had a lot of good times and probably got into some trouble and did some stupid stuff. So I thought, all right, my movie will be kind of like Stand By Me without the dead body. All right, that was my thinking. And that’s, that’s one of the films that I had on my list of movies that I want to make one day. But you know, from 95 to whenever Covid was right, like 30 years go by and I never sat down to write that script. So then when Covid happens and we’re stuck at home, I knew I’d have some time on my hands. I said, now is the time. And also given my Son’s age. It started to pop my head a little bit. Now I’m gonna write that screenplay. Then I speak to Aaron Lubin, the guy who reads the scripts with me, my producing partner, and he’s like, eddie, I’m hearing from our agent and our attorney, I don’t know when we’re gonna be able to make a movie again because due to social distancing, no one knows when we’ll be back on set. So at that point I was like, well, I don’t want to waste my time writing a script that may not get made for a couple years. And quite honestly, I can’t tell you when the moment was where I said, this should be a novel. But whenever that happened, I start writing it as a novel. But I’m a coward. I don’t believe that I can write prose. So I write the first six chapters as a journal, right? And I think to your very first question, if we’re still on the first question, and I think it’s time for the Q and A, right?
Katy
I’m glad I read the whole book.
Edward Burns
So anyhow, I promise this will be the last one that’s crazy long like this. But I write it as a journal. But that’s where. Because I’m like, I’m in tune with the kids voices. But then after six chapters, I’m like, this is a cop out. All right, you can do this. It helped me find the voice, but then I went to writing the novel. And then the other thing that happens, and I will shut up after this. And then we can get to some other stuff. I’ll come back to it because it’s Covid. My parents were trapped down in Florida, couldn’t get home to Long Island. So I’m calling my parents every day just like, you know, what’d you have for dinner? What did you and dad watch on Netflix last night? You know, doing that whole thing. And after a week or two of that, and my mom wasn’t well, I was like, all right, I’m gonna just call my mom every day and I’ll ask her a very specific question about her life. What do you remember about the day you graduated high school? What do you remember about your first job in Manhattan? What do you remember about taking the third L venue l with your father down from the Bronx into Manhattan? What do you remember about when my dad said he was going to take the cop test? And so I’m going upstairs after talking to her, thinking, I’m writing the book about the 12 year old latchkey kids and Slowly, my mom’s stories start sort of working their way into the book. And this book now is really the story of a fictionalized version of me and my brother and my son dealing with a fictionalized version of my mom, who was probably dealing with some form of depression, although we didn’t know what that was back then in 1980. And if we did, we were Catholic. So you swept it under the rug. And my parents were. It seemed like they had some moments where they weren’t getting along the way they used to. So in the book, this kid is terrified that his parents are headed for divorce. And that brings up another funny story, I’ll tell you, because my dad just recently reread the book for the third time. And I told him when I gave it to him, I said, dad, this isn’t us, all right? It’s not three kids. It’s only two kids, all right? Yes, it is our town. And the father is a cop, like you were. And the mom was from the Bronx, and her parents were born in Ireland and came over here, and her mother did die. But it’s. You know, it’s definitely not us. And it isn’t. But there’s a lot of us in there. But it’s pieces of it, and I’ll explain that later. But anyhow, the old man, my dad, after I told him, he goes, I know this is fiction. I know it’s fiction, but I have a question. There’s a scene at the end of the book where the kid comes to the dad in the kitchen, and the kid has been wanting to talk to his parents about are they getting divorced? And he’s afraid. He’s reluctant to ask either one of them the question. Then finally, at the end, he musters up the courage, and he asked his dad, are you and mom getting divorced? And his dad looks at him like he’s crazy because they’re Catholic and we don’t even talk about divorce. He goes, look, I want to explain to you a marriage, or maybe our marriage more specifically, is like having a bum leg, okay? Now, divorce would mean. Or would be the equivalent of maybe cutting the leg off, all right? So I could cut the leg off, and we could walk around the neighborhood with a peg leg. Or. Or your mother and I could just choose to walk with a limp, all right? And that’s what we’ve done. We’ve chosen to walk with a limp. So, no, we’re not getting divorced. Now get the F out of the house. And my father says, yeah, I don’t remember ever saying That I was like, yeah, because you didn’t. Because it’s fiction and I made it up. So to the point, like, was I terrified as a kid that my parents might get divorced? Yes. It’s times. Did my father ever have that conversation with me? No. So I’m going to take a drink of water and listen to the next one.
Katy
Please do. Oh, man. Okay. I’m going to move on from that. I was going to ask you, like, why not write it as a memoir in some ways, but let’s move on to something. Unless you have a great idea, I’ll.
Edward Burns
Do a short answer. Okay. Because, like, I had no interest in. In trying to remember the past and tell it honestly and truthfully. I write fiction. I love writing fiction. I talked about the characters taking you on a journey. And quite honestly, A, I wasn’t as insightful as this kid. B, like, my childhood wasn’t as interesting as all of that. And I’ll tell you some of the stories how I, like, I pulled nine different little snapshots from moments with my mom and turn that into one sequence. And also I just thought, you know, like, the past isn’t how we remember it. You know, like, I come from like a multi generational family of, you know, we would say storytellers or bullshit artists. The joke is I’m just the first one who figured out how to get paid to do it. But, you know, like, at the dinner table and then, you know, when we’re older, weddings and funerals and in bars, like, there was competition to be the person who could hold court, you know, who could tell the best, funniest and obviously longest story. So that’s why that’s great.
Katy
All right, so because you mentioned that the mother in this book is probably suffering from depression. This is definitely not a. A sad book. But it is a. But your character observes a lot of sadness in this book, mostly from his mother, but he also sees it in places, in his grandmother and in his father and even in himself. So is there a reason why sadness is one of the central themes that you were dwelling on while you were writing this book?
Edward Burns
Probably because, you know, I mean, like, there’s certain lines in the book that come from my dad, you know, one when talking about my mother and also the Irish in general, he said they have no gift for happiness. Right? So that was just part of my life. And we never looked at it as, like, sadness. It was just the way it was. Right? Like, I’m like nostalgic to a fault. You know, I get very melancholy, which is different than sadness in the book. At the end, I think he, like, looks up the definition of melancholy or bittersweet. Yeah. Just trying to sort of try and trying to. And again, that’s me, like, the author trying to find a word that describes exactly what I go through and what the kid was going through. There’s a passage in the book where he and his mom are driving in the car and they’re just listening to endless sad songs. You know, like, why do we do that to ourselves? You know, she says, you’re so sad. Why do you keep listening to these sad songs over and over? Like, we indulge our sadness, right? And, you know, I’ve always heard that it’s an Irish thing. I’m sure it’s an everybody thing. But. Yeah, I don’t know. I just. You know, the world can kind of. The little things can just kind of break your heart, you know.
Katy
So, yeah, I mean, I would say that there’s three themes of sadness. You could riff on any one of the themes. One of them is the sadness at the changing world or the temporary nature of things that you can. They could be driving in a car and they can remember that there were, like, bars and dance halls and houses and bungalows in these areas. But now they’re not there anymore. So it’s, like, in your memory, but it’s no longer present. So that’s one of the things that they talk about a lot. In particular, you know, your mother character is just ongoing devastated by this.
Edward Burns
That was my mom. You know, like, definitely. You know, there’s a sequence in there about Rockaway Beach. You know, Rockaway was kind of beautiful. Like, they called it the Irish Riviera. Hardly the Riviera. But, you know, like, that was gone. You know, the version of it was gone. They tore down all these little bungalows and they just were empty lots on the beach for years. And we would drive through there. I don’t know why, just to reminisce about what was. And I know that, like, you know, there’s two passages in the book that, you know. Like, the kid at the end, he. At the end, the last paragraph, he talks about, like, basically, it’s like there is no permanence, right? And that’s terrible. And it’s sad. And it’s like the kid recognizes this is what, like, has crippled my mom from, like, living in the present. And I know it prevents me from living in the present. And there’s a version of me that is the kid, but there’s a version of me that’s also the mother. Because the scene. There’s a scene in the book where, like, the mom is. The boys are moving. You know, they’re like, the older brother is probably 15, this kid is 12. So they got to get their little kids stuff, their childhood memorabilia. What’s the word? Whatever it is, like, the stuff, the kid stuff off the top shelf. He’s a writer, right? Whatever the kid stuff. Forget the word, because I just. There’s a good song about it that I just heard from a woman. His Last name is McKenna. This. Does anyone Not a country artist, anyhow, See, just keep me focused. Anyhow, so in the book, the mother’s standing on the chair, right? And she’s taking these things off of the shelf to box them up. Because it’s time for the little boy stuff to be put away in the attic. And in it, she starts crying hysterically on the chair. And the two boys sit there silently because they don’t know how to react. And your mom just starts crying. And then she sits down on the bed in between them, and she’s crying hysterically holding this teddy bear. And that kind of gets us into the story of what happened when the kid got stitches above his eye. Like, that is me, when I had to take the little kid stuff off of my son’s shelf. I mean, I did not cry in front of my son and then ask him, do you remember when we got this? And why do you want to throw it out? Don’t you know how meaningful it is? But, like, I was up there, like, oh, my God, I’m getting a little verklempt. I better get out of here so that my guy doesn’t see his father crying for no reason. You know, there’s another scene where after they put. They go the beach where they take the dog, right? There’s a scene where the hero of our story comes up behind his father. He puts his arms around his father, and he can feel his father is kind of like shaking, like, trying to suppress the tears. My old man never cried in front of us. All right? That just didn’t. My parents never said, I love you. We didn’t have hugs and kisses good night. We did not grow up like that. So I never saw my father cry. So the father crying in the book again because he knows his boy is going to leave him soon. That’s me that said the story in the book where the father does cry for the first time when they put their dog down again, like, kind of how the book is a little bit fact and A little bit fiction. The first time I did see my father cry was when. I’ll give you just a quick little story again, it’s in the book, so it’s related. When I go, so I had a dog, a Pomeranian. I won’t get into why I had a Pomeranian, but when I went off to do Saving Private Ryan, I gave the dog to my dad. He’s like, what am I supposed to do with the dog? I’m like, just, I’m gonna be gone for three months. Let’s take care of the dog. He’s like, fine. All right. I come back home, he says, you’re not getting the dog back. I’m hearing from people that he’s going into the bank, into the deli, and he’s got the dog in his coat and he loves the dog. So after that we have shared custody of this Pomeranian. Then the dog gets sick and the dog has to be put down. And you know, at the time I’m like 29. The scene is described as it happened in 1999. But I used that story for the summer of 1980 with the 12 year old kid seeing his father cry for the first time. So that kind of is another example of how I used my history and my family’s history and who we were, but fictionalize them.
Katy
There’s also the rift between a kid in childhood and them becoming a teenager and the distance that that puts between parents in writing all that. Did it give you a different perspective on your own growing up and leaving of your parents? You know, I mean, I know you experienced it with your kids.
Edward Burns
I experienced it with my kids. So it’s definitely much more of that. Again, I think like my parents generation, they weren’t, you know, they weren’t as attached to us as we are to our children. You know, if anything, I think they were like happy to get a effing break, quite honestly. So I don’t think they were ever crying or emotional about not seeing us. So no.
Katy
Well then why is your generation so different?
Edward Burns
Maybe because of the lack of it. You know what I mean? That’s probably it. You know, like there’s a story that I mention in the book that only after hearing this story did I get a better understanding of, let’s say, why my mother wasn’t as available emotionally. Right. So when I’m writing the book, I’m having those phone conversations. I told you about my mom, my mom tells me a story. And again, in a house like ours, you heard pieces of all these stories your whole life. And a Lot of times when you’re the kids, you’re not paying attention to the parents story because you want to tell your story, right? So I knew pieces of it, but I asked her this question and she told me the story about when her mother died. And basically. So my mom’s two brothers were born in Ireland. They came over to the South Bronx in 1937. My mother is born in 37, her younger brother is born in 38, and her mother dies shortly thereafter. All right? Her father was an uneducated immigrant, as my dad said, Patty off the boat, who was also a drunk with four kids under the age of six, no education and no prospects. So he put all four kids in an orphanage and went back to Ireland. Went to Ireland to find a new wife to help him raise these kids. Could not find a new wife. My mom never told me how long they were in the orphanage, but I know there was a lot of back and forth to the orphanage. There was some foster care sprinkled in there. It wasn’t something she really wanted to talk about. But he did come back. When he did come back, he got a job working as a sandhog. And the sand hogs were the guys who, when they were building the Lincoln Tunnel or any of the underwater tunnels in aqueducts, the, you know, guys go down, they blast out the bedrock, and then there are guys down there who take out the, you know, the rock. And again, this is in the, you know, late 30s, 40s. So he died at like 62 from black lung disease from just breathing in all that shit and also probably consumption. So. But she, I mean, she adored her father. In the book, he’s Pop McSweeney. We always knew him as Pat McKenna. He was one of those, like, gregarious, funny Irish guys who like, every Sunday night he’d have, you know, my. This is years later when my father was dating my mom, he’d said, you know, we show up at the apartment, as we’re coming up the stairs, you could hear them going on in the kitchen. You know, they’re dancing. They got the fiddles going in the banjo and they’re singing and they’re doing the whole thing. You know, you go into the kitchen and my dad would be like, you know, and your mother, of course, you know, like, she’s used to this because, like, you know, she’s dancing around with them. So it’s like, you know, she’s Irish. Irish. I’m Irish, but I’m not that Irish, you know. So my, my mom would tell me the stories of you know, Pop McKenna and his friends and all of that. And she just, she adored him. There’s a thing in the book where she was like, you know, and they had this dog and she would look out the window of the apartment if the dog was sitting outside of O’Leary’s pub. She knew that her father was there. So it’s kind of a double edged sword. She knew like, all right, I know where he is. But that means everyone else knows where he is. And it’s, you know, 2:00 in the afternoon and the old man is, you know, getting his load on. So she would tell the story that on payday from the Sandhogs, because he was a binge drinker, he would have those times where he knew he was going to just go off on a two week bender, he’d get his paycheck. And this was. She told this part of the story from. I said, what do you remember about taking the 3rd Avenue L? Those are the elevated trains that used to exist in New York, and they’re gone now. And of course, my mother would. Oh, the 3rd Avenue L. We would sit in the L with my girlfriends and you’d look out the window into the apartments, and it’s all gone now. And thank God for just Jackie O. Because after they tore down Penn Station, which they never should have done, you can’t tell. I can’t tell you how many buildings she saved. But it’s not like we’re the way it used to be, Eddie. So there was that kind of conversation. Anyhow, Pop McKenna would. Then he would get his paycheck, he would cash it, and they would hit every bar between 42nd street and 86th street, every Irish bar. And he’d put my mom on the bar, you know, she’s whatever, eight years old, and pop McKenna would sing a song and have his pint. Okay, Molly, let’s go three more blocks back onto the bar, have a pint and sing. When they got to 86th street, whatever money was left, say you take half of it, take it home to your two older brothers, make sure they put their uniforms on and get to school. Because if the nuns find out, you know, it’s back to the orphanage, all right? And they laugh about this story, or they did laugh about it, you know, when telling it to me in 2020. But when you hear a story like that and you have a better understanding of who your parents are, and I’ll tell you stories about my father’s life, which is crazy, you look at your parents very differently. You Know, it’s like, oh, well, you know, I get why you weren’t the. I love you so much, Mom. You know what I mean? Like, you never had an example of that. You never saw a version of what a family looked like. So the fact that they did such a great job with us and is a testament to, you know, fixing the ills of the past.
Katy
It’s interesting because we’re in this time where so many people are doing like 23andMe and trying to figure out what their heritage is. And your heritage is so front facing.
Edward Burns
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katy
I mean, do you feel like because you were like, so staunchly Irish as a family that that has shaped your personality, your. How you relate to the world, your relationships with people more than if you were just using a vial and being like, oh, wow, Irish. You know.
Edward Burns
I think definitely, you know, I mean, like, you know, like I said, my dad was a New York City cop. The cliche is like the Irish cop in New York. Right. Like, my mom had red hair and her father was a drunk. You know, another cliche. Right. Check all the boxes. You know, my father’s father was a drunk. And my father used to say about our two grandfathers, he’s, oh, Pop McKenna. Pop McKenna is like, he’s the happy dancing drunk who might periodically fall down the stairs. My father never laughed, never smiled, but he might throw you down the stairs. And that was the difference between who they were. Yeah, but like, in my neighborhood growing up, you know, I just recently played golf with two of like my childhood buddies, and it just kind of came up in conversation, sort of forgotten. But of the four of us, those two, two of them, both their mothers and fathers were born in Ireland. So of my nine best friends, who in the second book, because I think it’s going to be. It is going to be a trilogy, those families. Oh, cool. Thank you. Like, I grew up, like, you know, you’d go over to your friend’s house and both parents spoke with an Irish brogan. They were making Irish soda bread, and the girls had to do Irish step dancing and the sons had to play the accordion. You know, like, that was so, like, there was no escaping it. And then the other half of my friends were all Italian and, you know, their grandparents for the most part, were sort of off the boat. So, like, that was our world. Like, it was, you know, it was American, but it was definitely like all of these sort of off the boat characters. So it absolutely shaped who I am, I guess. Yeah.
Katy
Did you pass that down to your kids? Do they feel staunchly Irish as well, I think.
Edward Burns
Think so. But, you know, I mean, it’s different. It’s so different now. And I think, you know, like, we don’t live in, you know, a working class neighborhood anymore, but I think a big part of me writing the book especially so. So my mom was very sick during COVID and then sadly died. Never got to read the book. I’m not gonna. I’m not gonna cry because I almost did in another one of these. I’m just gonna. Yeah, you could hit me with a couple questions to get me. Yeah. But anyhow, I. You know, so sort of after she died, and I’ll tell you how the book kind of morphed after that. I was like, I’m gonna lean into not just her stories, but the stories of my father’s family and his grandfather plays a big role in it. Because I just started to think it was important for my kids to have some sense of, like, you know, the world that I came from and where their grandparents, who they knew, came from and, you know, what it was like for their great grandparents who came to this country at the turn of the century with no money and no education and, you know, and then, you know, generate two generations later, like, life is good. So.
Katy
So chapter 19, you talk about smells and how they can take you back to a time and place. They also go. You. Your characters also visit time and place. Like, they go back to places to try to recall the time as well. But smell your character finds, like, his grandfather’s pipe will take him back. His mother’s perfume will take him back. Is there a scent that would take you back to that time?
Edward Burns
I mean, it’s so funny. My brother today just texted me and he’s. What is it, like, inflicted or infected with the same sort of melancholy and nostalgia? He’s got an old 69 Cutlass. So in high school, I had a 70 Buick Skylark. And it’s fall in New York right now. And he’s just like he said, I told, took the Cutlass for a ride today. And just like the interior of that car just takes me back to your Skylark in 1986 as I’m pulling out of the driveway, like, so it’s just the smell of that, right? So I’m trying to think, is there one for me?
Katy
What is that smell, though? It’s like leather interior.
Edward Burns
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s sort of like. It’s like, you know, it’s kind of damp. Damp leather. Damp leather. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With a little hint of Fall, you know. Yeah, but whatever.
Katy
Okay. Yeah. So, of course, you highlight the notion of bittersweet feelings. And, of course, for the last 10 years, I’ve hosted a podcast called the Bittersweet Life. So bittersweet always jumps out to me. But how would you define what that feeling is?
Edward Burns
You know, like, I always get it at the end of every summer, right? At the end of every summer, we have a summer house. We live in the city, and we have a summer house on Long island, where I grew up. And the last day of summer, you know, like, I’m always the one who loads up the car, right? So, like, I’m in the driveway loading up the car, and it’s been a great summer, filled with great days on the beach and barbecues and seeing all your friends and all that stuff. And it happens every time. Like, I’m alone in the driveway, and you can. That hint of fall, right? It’s in the air. I’m crushed by sadness, even though I’m like, what are you? So, like, you’re coming off of, like, a great summer. Like, life is good. Like, you know, like, just try to be happy here, but it’s impossible.
Katy
It’s always good and bad. Bittersweet. All right, you are a director, an actor. A screenwriter. What is it like for you to add novelists to the. To your description?
Edward Burns
I mean, like, and it’s not just because this is the most recent thing I’ve done. Because it’s not the most recent thing I’ve done. I made a movie this summer in Ireland. But, like, I am more proud of this than anything I’ve done. You know, maybe it’s because of that. That early dream that I had, but I think it’s the most fully realized thing that I’ve kind of created. You know, like, anytime you sit down to write a script, you know, I talked about, like, having an idea to make a movie. Like, the 400 Blows, you know, you have, like, images in your head of what that movie’s gonna look like. And then you start to write the script, and it just changes so much based on how much money you get, who you cast, the locations you get. The book is pretty darn close to kind of what I wanted it to look like, if you will, what I want it to smell like and feel like. You know, I think, like, all of that comes across. I just recently listened to the audiobook. You know, I do the narration just to just to kind of vibe it and see, like. And also because I’m deep into the second book. So for the book tour, I wanted to make sure I wasn’t talking about scenes that I had just written. Now, is that in the new book or is that in the old book?
Katy
I don’t remember.
Edward Burns
But I love this process so much because, like, I make indie films or low budget movies. So my entire career, the writing process, I’ve always been handcuffed by the budgets that are available to me. So when I’m writing a screenplay, a lot of times I just know we can never afford to shoot that scene. So I just rewrite the scene as a smaller version of it. I’ll tell you funny stories about brothers McMullen on how we just figured out a way to tell a story as small as you possibly can with this. You know, initially I thought it was gonna take place, and again, when I started, I was thinking, oh, if I publish the book, I could then adapt it into a screenplay for a film. And that was gonna be the kid in 1980, which is an affordable movie to make. The minute I start bringing my mom’s life in, you know, like going to Babe Ruth’s open casket wake at Yankee Stadium, which he actually did do, it’s gonna be a little pricey. Going back to my great grandfather, you know, starting his trucking business in hell’s kitchen in 1880. Little pricey. So it was liberating and to just write without having the producer’s hat on. Because when I’m writing screenplays, I also produce all those movies. So I’m like, I just have to be practical. And I was able to be impractical, I guess, with this one.
Katy
And it’s also something that you are. Until it’s in the hands of an editor. It’s profoundly alone compared to having to work with a whole group of people.
Edward Burns
Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I knew also. And I’ll tell the story. We’ll get to, like, the. The editor who really saved the book. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I knew it was going to be a process to get it published, but not the same kind of process of trying to get a film financed. And then even once it’s financed, you have to then sell it. And then once you sell it, you have to then try and, like, figure out how to get people into the theaters. Like, that’s a. I mean, that’s such a hard, long process that I’m so glad I have this to fall back on now.
***
Katy
Katy popping in real quick to take you on a little journey for a moment back to when Edward Burns and I were exploring the streets of Rome. Take a listen.
Tiffany
Coincidentally, as luck would have it, we have one of Rome’s very best cafes just around the corner. So let’s see if it’s open.
Katy
Okay.
Tiffany
Yeah, this is Cafe Santa Stacio in the piazza of the same name. And I mean, of course there’s going to be some like super niche coffee snobs who are going to have their own particular favorite. But I would say the majority of Romans consider either this cafe or Tazza d’oro to be the best coffee in Rome. I do think the smell of this place is amazing. And when you walk inside it just, if you like the smell of coffee, it’s pretty incredible. Now you can see everybody’s standing up at the counter. I mean, there are some tables outside for the tourists, but the Italians who come here, a lot of business people, people come here during the day on their coffee break. The parliament is just around the corner. So sometimes you’ll see some famous Italian politicians in here. They always stand up at the bar to get their coffee. And as you can see, it’s packed like you can’t really. It’s hard to get up to the front of the line. You have to elbow your way up there. But despite its fame, the coffee is very well priced and espresso is around a euro, so they have not taken advantage of their fame. Pay for what you want and then take your receipt up to the bar. And I mean, obviously don’t push in front of people. You wait your turn. But people in Italy don’t really make organized lines. So you just kind of look around, you see who is there before you. And when you feel like those people have been served, you put your arm forward and you get your coffee.
Katy
If I want to be legit, do I have to stand at the bar?
Tiffany
No, sometimes you want to sit down and have your coffee. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Katy
I prefer that.
Tiffany
I mean, I’m a tea drinker, so of course I prefer sitting down worse than having a pot of tea standing up at the bar of a cafe. It’s like, it’s the worst. You know, you don’t drink tea quickly.
Katy
Tea is so slow.
Tiffany
It just. It’s a total nightmare. So I usually just get water these days.
Katy
The one way you are at odds with this country. Well, let’s move on to a place where you’re not at odds. A place that is extremely beautiful. And another. We have had so much fun exploring this historic city. So many wonderful stories, so many beautiful and thrilling sights to see, and we’ve made so many Discoveries together. Now imagine being on the streets of Rome with us making those discoveries for yourself as we show you some of Rome’s most delightful secrets. You see them with your own eyes. You smell the smells. We’re leading a week in Rome this October 2025, from the 5th to the 11th. A small group of adventurous and curious listeners, and you could be one of them. Find out more information@thebittersweetlife.net or email us for the details at bittersweetlifepodcastmail.com now back to the show.
***
Katy
Oh, man. I have a thousand more questions I could ask you, but. Yes. So there is a mic over here, and I have this tablet, if you guys have typed it in. And if you don’t have any questions, I’ll just keep going.
Edward Burns
And we can repeat your questions, right? We can probably hear.
Katy
Yes, I can also repeat. Yeah, if you don’t mind, because they’re recording it.
Edward Burns
Oh, that’s right. My bad.
Katy
They’re recording it. For people who are listening at home.
Katy
Well, I feel a little bit naive because up until tonight, I thought it was a memoir. And I think one reason is because I listened to the audio and because you were reading it, I thought it was your life.
Edward Burns
Did that ever occur to you that…
Katy
You might confuse people?
Edward Burns
Not until tonight. And it’s too late. Too late to do anything about it now. So I guess, you know. Yeah. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? I’m curious. When you told this story about the nine different stories becoming one story in your book. Yep, yep. I started thinking of you acting in other people’s movies. Are you a pain in the ass because you’re thinking on 18 different levels, or can you just. Is that like a little oasis for you to do somebody else’s material? The latter. It’s more the oasis. I mean, I got very lucky in that, you know, after I made my first three films as a writer director, the first movie I ever acted in was Private Ryan. So I can assure you, you are not going to show up on that set and offer any suggestions. All right, so. But the great thing that happened from that was, you know, Stephen was so generous with his time. I was like, would you mind if I, on some days, just kind of shadowed you to sort of like, just watch your. So for me, I got to go to graduate film school on that set for 66 days watching him, and he changed the way I work with actors. You know, we. For the first two weeks, all of us, you know, for the whole gang of the young guys none of us had really been in a studio film before, and we were all terrified. And, you know, for the first two weeks, Spielberg is doing like two to three takes and not giving us any kind of feedback. So we’re convinced we’re terrible. He has nothing to say to us because we suck and we’re going to get fired. Midway through or towards the end of the second week, we do a scene where he asks for a fourth take, and then he starts giving us some notes. Would you try this? Would you try that? Try that. So afterwards at lunch, we said to him, hey, you know, a bunch of us went over and said, Stephen, how come? Why today did you kind of give us some notes? And he said, well, today you didn’t know what the hell you were doing. I goes, and I hired you guys for a reason. You’re all kind of very specific types. I assume that you show up to a day at work having done your homework, prepared. You have choices that you’re going to make. I’m not going to give you a note after the first or second take. Especially young actors, which immediately would make you insecure. And even now, at my age, if I get a note, I haven’t acted for anybody in a long time. But if you do get a note, you kind of, like, put back on your heels and you’re starting to second guess your choices. He’s like, you know, and you’re an ensemble. So I got to give you guys time to, like, for the band to kind of find the groove together, if you will, Right? So, like, I’ll give you three takes to do that. If you can’t find it, then I got to step in and kind of help you get there. And that was so eye opening for me because I thought, you know, when I made my first three films, either the director was supposed to direct, so after every take, I thought I was supposed to say something, you know, and now I, you know, I. Since then, that was. We shot that 97. That’s how I direct. And when I work with actors, so only when there is something to say do I step in. So really changed my approach to making films then after that? No. Like, for me to show up on someone else’s set. I mean, not to sound like arrogant, you know. And again, I’m not a great actor. Like, I do my thing, right. I’m always amazed at what a nice, relaxing day it is compared to when you’re writing, direct, writing, directing, acting and producing. You know, during that, like, every second of every day is filled with somebody asking You a question or problem that needs to be solved. When you’re an actor, some days you have like, if you do an action film, you have three words you have to say the whole day, let’s get them over here. And then you just fucking doing all that. I’m like, I can’t. I’m getting paid for this. Fantastic. So anyhow, thank you.
Katy
Which one of those are people most interested in when they hear that you act, you direct, you produce?
Edward Burns
I think depending on the movie and then writing probably because I find like this, the, the writing is something that’s a little bit more relatable. Like, you know, like it’s hard for people to think about directing or producing. You know, there’s a ton of writers out there, so.
Katy
Yeah, I get you.
Edward Burns
Okay, thanks for being here. Of course. Just curious on your pros. Your writing process is like, do you do it the old fashioned way? Put stuff on paper first? Is there a time of day that you feel more creative? Like morning, night, do you have music playing? Do you need excluded cabin or something like that? Or, you know, maybe I don’t have the cabin. I wish I had the cabin. Just curious on how you do you have writer’s block and how do you get out of that? I can. Yeah, I’ll give you all that because I like to talk. No. So like, you know, it’s changed over the years, but you know, I would say for the last, like, you know, since probably my kids were born, which is now 21 years, I try to write every day. I got that from years ago we optioned William Kennedy. The great William Kennedy won the Pulitzer for Ironweed, his novel Legs. So I got to work with him adapting that book into a screenplay. Never got made. But the same question you asked, and that was years ago, I asked about his process and he said, I don’t care what you do, figure out a way to work every day, even if it’s 10 minutes. He goes, I try to write for at least an hour. I’ll write even on Christmas Day. So I’ve kind of adopted that. And quite honestly, I don’t write every day, but I intend to write every day. And you know, like on this book tour, it’s been a little hard. So I’ve probably written half the days I’ve been on this, you know, 15 day tour. The time that I prefer to write is I try to go from 10:00 to 1. Right. I drop my kids off at school, come back, have a little coffee, check some quick emails, turn off my Wi Fi go 10 to 1. So do those three hours, then take a lunch break. And if I’m in a really good groove and I felt like, oh, wait, I still have more to do, I’ll then pick it back up, let’s say, from three to five. So that would be my process. As far as writer’s block goes, I’ve never had it because I don’t allow myself to have it. If I’m writing a script and I get to a scene that I can’t quite crack, I just say the first line of dialogue I write is basically, okay, this is the shittiest version of this scene. No one is ever going to see it. Don’t sweat it. Just plow through this so you can get to the scene that, you know, that you’re excited to write. Because there’s always chapter. There’s chapters or passages or sequences that are more fun to work on than others. So that’s what I do. But then the act of typing, I find, kind of just breaks you through. And if, you know, I equate it to. If anybody here, like, plays music or writes. Writes music, you would never sit there and go from like a C to a G and freeze before the A minor or the E minor, right? And be like, oh, no, I gotta put it down, right? I can’t do it. You’ll noodle. And you’ll find it, and you’ll find it. Writers sometimes, like, if they can’t come up with the next sentence or the next scene, they put it down. I’m just noodle, noodle for a half hour. And the noodling is the shitty version of the scene or the bad chapter. And then you’ll find, like, a lot of guys when they re listen to the noodling that they thought was garbage, right? It’s like, oh, wait, there was good stuff in there. And I find, like, there’s good stuff in the garbage. So that’s how I kind of break through the writer’s block. The other way I break through the writer’s block is, you know, I’m always working on several screenplays. That’s not my intention. You know, I have the one that I really want to write. But when I hit that wall and I know I have to write that day and I don’t have it, I’ll be like, oh, let me just go back and pick up the cop script. Let’s say that’s completely different than the romantic comedy or the sad drama. You know, just as a way to, like, you know, just kind of keep Doing it and move another ball down the field closer to the end zone. That’s kind of like how I look at it. And it’s. You know, there are some creative people who don’t like to. They don’t think you can be creative that way. You know, I know the Beatles always talked about, like, they showed up at the studio, like, it was a 9 to 5 job, and they’re just going to do their work. And I’m thinking, like, yeah, they did some pretty good shit. So I’m following them. So that’s my kind of approach to it. Did that answer all of it? I think, okay, cool.
Katy
So we always hear about authors who have, like, novels in a drawer that never come out. How many scripts do you think have never come out that you’ve made if you had to estimate?
Edward Burns
I don’t have to. It’s about 27, you know.
Katy
Exactly.
Edward Burns
- Finished screenplay. I have three Westerns, which. I’m gonna make one of those one day, you know. Yeah. I have, like, a movie that is like My Godfather that I’m gonna make one day. It’s hard to get movies made.
Katy
It is.
Edward Burns
And it’s getting harder and harder and harder. So, yeah, a lot.
Katy
Would you ever pass one of your scripts off to, like, if Steven Spielberg was like, hey, man, if Steven Spielberg.
Edward Burns
Said yes, I wouldn’t even have to think about that.
Katy
But M. Night Shyamalan said, I mean.
Edward Burns
Like, it’s never happened. So I’ve had. But I. You know, like, I’m now, you know, like, not to be a fatalist or whatever, but, like, I’m 56, so I know it’s like, you know, I still have a lot of years left to make movies, but not as many as I had when I was 36. So it’s like, there’s some movies are like, shit, man, you gotta get on that one. You know, like the Western. I don’t know how I feel about, like, riding a horse, like, really fast right now. You know what I mean?
Katy
It’s gonna last. The hurts.
Edward Burns
Oh, my God. I don’t know about that. Maybe I’m the guy in the rocking chair outside, chewing tobacco, saying something funny like this.
Katy
It’s quite a gift that you come and you speak because we get to learn a lot more about you. And you obviously seem like a family man, and we know you so much from a professional perspective. But when you think about your profession, your passion and your purpose, what is your legacy? What will you leave? What do you want to be known for? Seattle hits big at the end.
Edward Burns
There’s a couple of quotes. There’s a. I can’t remember the filmmaker that said it, but as it related to, like, film crews said, when I watch a film, I need to be able to tell who the devil made it. Right. So, like, I always fell in love with artists who sort of like you. They. They didn’t jump around genres. Right. You know, I mentioned William Kennedy. You know, I’m a huge Springsteen fan, you know, like writing about similar characters and stories over and over again. So that I know early on in my career, I wasn’t interested in kind of jumping around and playing with different genres. I kind of like, I liked the stories that started in that house. You know, I’ll tell you one little thing about the COVID of the book. The COVID is kind of a metaphor for the fact fiction thing in the book. So that. That is my face when I’m 12. That is the house I grew up in, which is also the house we shot brothers McMullen in. But the photograph is my nephew that my daughter took this past Thanksgiving. And we photoshopped the Marlboro Road on the sign. So it’s a little bit of truth and a little bit of bs.
Katy
That’s great. Yeah, that’s great. But so for your legacy.
Edward Burns
So for my legacy, yeah. Yeah. You know. You know, I think, like, there, like, I kind of have like a little snapshot slice of life of characters at a time that are pretty specific. I think the book, you know, if I look at my first film and the book and there’s 30 years between them, it’s clearly like I’m looking at sort of an Irish American working class experience coming out of New York. But not. But. But, you know, I remember Even when brothers McMullen came out and that movie, like, was huge, I got to travel all over the world and go to all these different film festivals, and people all over the world said, that’s my family, you know, so, like, there is in specificity you can find, like, universal truths. Right? So, like, I write very. To a specific place, but I think, like, you know, because they’re just real people dealing with real issues, I think they’re very relatable. So I don’t know if that quite answers it, but it’s a great question. Now I’m going to have to give some thought to a better answer. Yeah.
Katy
Well, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for being here.
Edward Burns
Yeah, no, thank you.
Katy
Thank you, everybody for coming out.
Edward Burns
Fun.
Katy
He’s going to be signing over there, so get your bed. Edward Burns and I want to thank Town Hall Seattle for presenting Edward Burns and his book A Kid from Marlboro Road. And thank you for allowing us to share this conversation on the Bittersweet Life. I hope you enjoyed listening, and until next time, this is the Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewell. It’s rare to find a podcast that has aired for over a decade, but this podcast is one and you can be a sponsor of it, reaching a loyal group of engaged and thoughtful people who relish travel, new experiences, and lifelong learning. Get the conversation started by visiting the support tab at thebittersweetlife.net.