Just over 12 years ago, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio was elected Pope Francis in the conclave of 2013. And Tiffany was in St. Peter’s Square when it happened. She saw the white smoke pouring out of the Sistine Chapel chimney, she heard those famous words “Habemus Papam!” and she, along with the other thousands of people that had by that time gathered in St. Peter’s Square that rainy March night, was among the first to see the newly elected Pope in person.
With Pope Francis seriously ill, and many believing his papacy will soon come to an end, Tiffany and Katy talk about his 12 years (so far) as Pope, what it was like to see him elected, see him up close when he baptized Aurelio, and what will happen when he eventually passes.
We also delve into all things pope, including the death and funeral of Pope John Paul II, the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, and what to see in Rome instead if you happen to be here when the Sistine Chapel is closed for the conclave.
The mega-blog posts that Tiffany mentions having written during the lead-up to the conclave of Pope Francis can be found here:
Meet the Papabili: A Handy Guide to the Popefuls of Conclave 2013
How the Conclave Works: All the Rules and Rituals of the Papal Election
You can listen to the episode right here, or find the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, and elsewhere.
Related Episodes from our archives:
Episode 485: A Night at the Vatican
Bittersweet Moment #216: The Route of the Seven Churches
Bittersweet Moment #215: Rome’s Jubilee Arrives!
Bittersweet Moment #212: Behind the Scenes at the Vatican
Bittersweet Moment #189: Baptized by the Pope
Bittersweet Moment #11: VATICAN
Five key takeaways from the episode:
- The podcast discusses Pope Francis’s current health issues and hospitalization, reflecting on his papacy and comparing it to previous popes like John Paul II.
- The hosts share personal experiences of being in Rome during significant papal events, including Pope Benedict XVI’s resignation and Pope Francis’s election in 2013.
- They describe the excitement and crowds in St. Peter’s Square during papal elections and the tradition of white smoke signaling a new pope has been chosen.
- The conversation highlights some of Pope Francis’s humble gestures and decisions that set him apart, such as choosing not to live in the Apostolic Palace.
- The hosts discuss hidden gems and secret places in Rome that they enjoy discovering and sharing with others, particularly on their guided tours of the city.
Full Episode Transcript:
Katy
Welcome to Rome. This is The Bittersweet Life with Katy Sewall and Tiffany Parks.
Tiffany
Hello.
Katy
This is the Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
Tiffany in Rome, Katy in Seattle. We are recording this ahead of when you are hearing it. This will be coming out on Monday, March 3, 2025. But as we are recording it, Pope Francis, the leader of the Catholic Church and in some cases which we’ll get into the leader of Rome in some ways at least the hearts is currently in the hospital and has been for quite some time suffering from. From a serious number of ailments.
Tiffany
Basically exactly what I had. But, you know, maybe a little bit of a stronger case.
Katy
Yeah, you can fill it in a little more, but basically it’s a bit of a Pope watch right now. People are wondering, is he going to recover? How old is he now, Tiffany, how old is Pope France?
Tiffany
I believe he’s 88 or 89.
Katy
Okay. So the thought right now is, is he going to survive? Is he not? Every day we’re on edge. So I’m telling you when we, we are doing this ahead of time just in case, by the time this comes out, he has died. Hopefully not. But. But just in case, as we’re recording this, he’s still alive. And yeah, we wanted to kind of delve into all things Pope and my whole time of, from when I moved to Rome to now Pope Francis has been the Pope. It seems worthwhile to mark what’s going on. So first, why don’t you give us the basic lowdown of what you know is happening.
Tiffany
So he was admitted to the Gemelli Hospital, which is one of the most important hospitals in Rome, one of the more modern ones. Katy, just to.
Katy
To follow up on last Monday.
Tiffany
Yeah, yeah, last week. So. And considered one of the best hospitals in Rome. So he was admitted there from the time of this recording, maybe 10 or 11 or 12 days ago. And he had a very bad case of bronchitis which developed into pneumonia. And he has suffered from lung problems his for most of his life. I believe that he has part of one of his lungs was removed and I don’t know what the cause was, but it was when he was a relatively young man, I believe. So he’s always had lung problems. He’s always had lung issues. And so, you know, I guess clearly, as I’ve learned having, having bronchitis and complications recently, you do get scarring with that, that obviously the older you are, the less that’s likely to heal. And so clearly it’s dangerous when he gets this and, and pneumonia is dangerous in general. I mean, it’s dangerous for babies and it’s dangerous for older people even in our modern times. It’s a serious thing. And so, you know, he is being taken care of. They say he’s a little tiny bit better. I don’t really know what met on what metrics that is. And I believe I read also that he had some kind of kidney failure, but that they apparently are working on that. I, I don’t, to me the words kidney failure means like your kidneys have failed. Like, I don’t know how you can go back from that. But, but perhaps it is something that can be adjusted.
Katy
Yes. And I know because, you know, I do fill in work at the local NPR station here in Seattle that people are being, are getting prepared for the fact that this might be the end. He’s been sort of in ill, ill health off and on the last few years. I got a notification, an internal email that was basically like if the Pope dies on a weekend, I was filling it in, by the way, where I’m like, oh, please let it not be this particular weekend, you know, because if the Pope dies and you have to do special coverage and you have to.
Tiffany
You know, but how great to have somebody who, who has lived in Rome as the fill in anchor when the Pope dies. I mean, that would have been super lucky to get you.
Katy
Oh, that’s true. But I like Pope Francis as a Pope and I know we can’t keep him forever, but you know, compared to some of the Popes, he’s the one I know the best, I guess. And we’ll tell you some more stories about that later on. But okay, so what is the buzz that’s happening in Rome itself?
Tiffany
Well, I knew the lady in the supermarket yesterday morning who was giving me some fresh bread. I think she knows that my husband works in the Vatican. I think that’s why she asked me. She’s like, what are they saying about the Pope? Like, as if he had like some inside knowledge because he works in the Vatican. I mean, and I did ask him as well, like I was, is it true that. Because I, I saw an article that said basically what you were saying that they were. And this article was from at least five days ago. And they’re saying they’re already like in pre conclave mode. Like the cardinals are already sort of gathering and they’re all discussing and they’re throwing, I guess throwing around ideas, trying to, trying to create factions and to create groups and solidify votes. Around certain candidates, I don’t know. And I wrote and I sent that to him, and I was like, is that. Is that true? He’s like, I don’t know. So, yeah, you know, so people have. People do talk about it. And it just struck me as so funny. This morning, I was driving the kids to school because we have a carpool, and one of the kids in the carpool, he’s in fifth grade, so he’s 10. And I’m trying to think what. What he said. He used an expression. That’s a very typical expression in Rome. I don’t know that it’s common in all of Italy or if it’s just a Rome thing. And again, I don’t know what he was referring to, but he was trying to say this thing, whatever it is, is really rare. And he was like, yes. Which means it happens every. Every death of a pope. Meaning, like, it’s really rare. It happens only, like, every decade. It’s like once in a blue moon. It’s a once in a blue moon expression, except the expression is once in a pope’s death.
Katy
Wow, I love that.
Tiffany
And I thought that’s just so funny that, like, this little kid, that’s an expression that he knows and he uses.
Katy
Yeah, that is funny.
Tiffany
But that. That comes with growing up in Rome, I believe.
Katy
I know that Rome is. It’s a Catholic city, but not everybody there is necessarily Catholic, you know, practicing Catholic.
Tiffany
Right.
Katy
Do you have a overwhelming sense of, like, how distressed people are about Pope Francis, perhaps?
Tiffany
It’s hard to say. I mean, I know at church on Sunday, they had, like, you know, how in a Catholic service and maybe in a Protestant service as well, I honestly can’t remember. But near the end of the. The service, there’s like, the prayers of the faithful, and there’s like seven or eight prayers at our church. They’re read by the children, by the. The altar boys and girls.
Katy
Cute.
Tiffany
And they are in the, you know, the little. The little paper that you get at the beginning of the Mass, that’s sort of like the same thing that every church has. It’s not just for our church. It’s. But they didn’t do those prayers. They had a whole set of prayers that were just for St. Francis, like, seven or eight different prayers that were just for him and different types of prayers for him. And they definitely talked about him quite a bit during the service. But that’s a church, you know, that’s a Catholic church, so you can’t really go off of that for the whole general Atmosphere, Honestly, I. I think they care, but I think at the. On the other hand, he is. I think that. Here’s what I’ll say. It was different when it was John Paul ii. John Paul II was a different level. He was a different level of loved, I think. And I was in Rome when he died. I had been in Rome for about a year. I hadn’t been here very long. It was all anybody could talk about, think about. It was everywhere. Everybody was obsessed with this, with the idea of John Paul II dying. And he was old, too. So it’s. So I was about to say Pope Francis is. Old people understand old. Old people eventually die. And, you know, you can be sad for yourself, but on the other hand, you know that they’ve lived a long life and, you know. But that was not the mood when it was John Paul II. People were weeping. And I went two or three nights in a row to St. Peter’s Square while people were holding vigils. And you would not believe how many people were there, how many young people from all over the world. I think that young people from, like, especially from. From South America and Central America, like, came to Rome on purpose to be in Rome when he died and to maybe be able to go to his funeral. His funeral. I didn’t go to it. I had to work. But his funeral was intense. The amount of time that people waited to be able to walk past his open casket, it was like. I don’t want to say the wrong thing, because I don’t remember. I mean, I don’t really remember, but I want to. I. I feel like it was like, almost in the double digits of hours that people waited eight or maybe 10 hours, like, it was insane. And I was teaching yoga at that time. I had at least one lady in my regular lady in my yoga class who went to his funeral. Maybe more than one, maybe two different ladies. And I just remember one particular one saying, it was like the weight was nothing. It didn’t bother me. It didn’t bother anybody. Everybody was patient. Nobody was pushing. I mean, this is Italy. This is Rome. You know how people push and shove and can’t stand to wait. She’s like, everybody was so respectful. Anyway, I went and I went to St. Peter’s Square the night that he died. I wasn’t there the moment that they turned the light out or whatever it was that they did to tell people that he died. But I went after because I was living with a bunch of roommates, and they were all sort of interested. So we all walked over there together. So I don’t. I honestly don’t think that in the 13 or the 12 years, rather, that that Pope Francis has been pope. I don’t think that he has, quote, unquote, earned. And that’s not the right word, but I can’t think of a better word to use the. The amount of love that John Paul II has. Not to say that he’s not loved, but it’s. He’s very divisive in the Catholic community. And there are a lot of Catholics who don’t like him a lot more than you might expect, especially the conservative Catholics don’t like him. And so I don’t think that John Paul II had a lot of divisiveness. I think that he was kind of universally loved. So that’s all I can say. That’s all I can say about that. I don’t feel like it’s. It’s the same.
Katy
Tell me, tell me about this light. Where’s the light that’s on that gets turned off visually?
Tiffany
Well, I mean, in the Apostolic palace, this is huge, square palace building right to the right of St. Peter’s Basilica. If you’re looking at St. Peter’s Basilica, it’s right to your right. It’s this huge white building. And that is where historically, the popes have lived, I mean, ever since that building was built. And that’s where, of course, John Paul II lived and, and Benedict XVI lived. And there’s a specific two or three windows that are the Pope’s windows, that are his bedroom windows. And when he gives his Sunday now, I can’t remember the name of the speech that he gives on Sundays. The Angelica Angelicus, I think that’s what it’s called. He always appears at that window. So if you’ve ever seen the news and you’re, you know, watching on a Sunday and they show the Pope, and of course, in Italy, they show it always on every Sunday news broadcast. They show it. I don’t know if they ever show it in America, but he’s always speaking from that wind. And there’s like a red, you know, and gold tassel, like cloth that is draped out the window. And so that’s the Pope’s window. Now, when Pope Francis was elected, he chose not to live in the Apostolic Palace. It was sort of an act of humility. It was considered an act of humility. He said, no, I’m just going to live in the very simple but probably very comfortable lodgings that the cardinals lived in during the Conclave, which is actually, I think, it’s just outside of the Vatican. I don’t know that it’s actually within the Vatican walls, or it might be, but it’ I think, called Santa Marta. And it’s like a building that’s sort of like a. I don’t want to say hostel, because that probably makes it sound more rustic than it is, but a very simple hotel. And so he just chose to live there instead of living in the Apostolic Palace. So if when he dies, he dies at home, it’ll probably be a different. Different situation. You know, you won’t be able to see his window from St. Peter’s Basilica. But of course, John Paul II was in his bedroom lying in bed when he died. And so they had. I believe they had the window. I can’t remember is that they turn the light off or they turn it on. I can’t remember. I guess they turn it off. But I didn’t witness that because I wasn’t. I didn’t go down there till he’d already died. But, yeah, that was very. I’ve kind of witnessed a lot of crazy papal moments. I mean, not crazy like the death of a pope isn’t such a crazy thing. But I’ll never forget in February of 2013. So almost exactly 12 years ago, Claudio calling me at my office. I can just picture. I can picture exactly where I was sitting and picking up the phone, and he just said, papa sie dime. And I was, like, trying to translate, because what does that mean? What does dimeso mean? Like, I kind of knew what it meant, but it wasn’t positive. And it means he resigned. The Pope resigned. And he was talking, of course, about Benedict xvi. And I mean, that is something that hasn’t happened. Hadn’t happened since, like, the 1300s or something, like the Pope resigning. It was just like, it. It can’t be done, you know? And so that was. I just remember such a huge deal, a bombshell. Like, nobody was expecting that. And then, of course, I was in St. Peter’s Square the night that Francis was elected, which was crazy. And then, of course, he baptized my son as well.
Katy
So, yeah, I mean, so many stories. The night that Francis was elected was the morning for me. So was that. Or. Yeah. So it must have been really late where you were, because I was at work in a newsroom when that happened. And of course, it happened something like 15 minutes before we were supposed to go on the air with a totally different show. And we have just whatever little camera they’d set up to, like, when the white smoke appears. So when they pick a pope. They make white smoke appear. So, you know, someone has been chosen. We had the little camera up on our computers so that we could keep an eye on whether or not they’d chosen anybody. And of course, everyone been speculating about different names. We’d done all of this looking up, who’s this person? Who’s that person, just in case the white smoke happened before we were to go on the air. And of course, worst case scenario, we have 15 minutes, and they picked somebody that was not one of the people we’d really researched. It was somebody who was out of the blue. And we’re like, who is this person? Luckily for us, though, our guest that morning happened to be Dr. Helen Prejean, who was a sister, you know, a nun who was well known for working within the prison system here. And so I run into the green room where she’s already sitting, and I said, they picked up Hope. Do you know anything about, you know, this guy? And she’s like, I know a little bit. And I’m like, can we talk about it on the show? We have to do something. She’s like, sure. So luckily, I had a nun booked just by circumstance, just by absolute chance.
Tiffany
Yeah. But for you, I wrote this huge blog post because that was back in my blogging days, and I researched the crap out of this thing. Took me hours and hours and hours. I think I wrote two different posts, one which was sort of like the history of the Conclave, how it works, like, what. What’s going on in there? And that was it. That was a tome. And then I wrote another post about the Papabili, you know, the preferiti, like, the guys who were in the running. And I mean, I looked them up, I researched them. The funny thing is that Claudio said, I think I know who’s going to be pope. And I was like, really? He’s like. He’s like. I’m like, what have you heard? Like, how in the world do you know this? And he said, I think it’s going to be. And I can’t remember the name of the guy, but he was South American. And so what I think what Claudio heard was there’s going to be. It’s going to be a South American pope. And so the one who was most known and most sort of famous, I guess, was this other guy who I think was. I think he might have also been from Argentina. I can’t really remember. And of course, it wasn’t. It was Jorge Bergoglio. And, yeah, it was a crazy moment. I was not able first of all, I mean, I remember the election of Benedict XVI, and I really wanted to go to St. Peter’s Square and sort of watch and be there, because they do the votings twice a day, once in the afternoon and once in the evening. And I wanted to be there and to witness it. And because of my schedule, I wasn’t able to, because I think it took very ballots to elect Benedict xvi, if I remember, maybe only three. And so I missed that. And so this time I was like, well, I was still living in trustevery, of course. And I was like, there’s no way I’m missing it this time. I had a friend at that time who was very, very Catholic, passionately Catholic. So she was going like every day. And so I said, oh, you know, you’re going tonight. And we lived across the street from each other. And she’s like, yeah. And so I was like, let’s go. Let’s. I want to go with you tonight, or whatever. So we were down there and it was. Nobody thought, for whatever reason, nobody thought it was he was going to be elected that night. And they all thought like, everybody had their ideas. You know, it’s going to take several days. It’s going to take. It was longer than Benedict’s election, but not much longer. I think maybe it was four or five days. Honestly, these details have just completely disintegrated in my memory. But be that as it may, everybody was kind of just milling around. Nobody seemed to have any sense that that was the. But we just kind of wanted to see. I was like, I want to see some smoke. I don’t care if it’s black smoke, white smoke. I just want to see some smoke coming out of the Sistine Chapel chimney. If you don’t know. If you’re looking at St. Peter’s Basilica and you’re in the square, Apostolic palace is huge. It’s to your right, in between St. Peter’s Basilica and the Apostolic palace, is the Sistine Chapel. It’s this separate building that you can, if you, you might not even notice it because it’s very plain from the outside, very medieval looking. I mean, it is medieval, but it has a little metal chimney on it. That’s where the smoke comes out. And we were all kind of just chatting. We’re talking. Lots of people were there, but, you know, everybody’s kind of just chilling out. And all of a sudden we looked up and the smoke was coming out and it was, we were all expecting to see black smoke and it was white and there was Just this huge gasp came up from the crowd. Everyone just. Everyone just went. And everyone started to move forward because we were all sort of milling around at the very back of the square. And if you don’t know, St. Peter’s Square is absolutely huge. So everybody starts pressing forward, right? Because we want to be in the front as close as we can. And so we’re just getting pressed forward with the crowd, and we get up to the very middle. And Claudio had been at home working on the computer, but he had, like, exactly what you had on. He had, like, a little, you know, the chimney cam in the corner of his screen, but for whatever reason, he had, like, a window up that was blocking it. And I tried to call him, but all of the lines were getting blocked because so many phones were in the same area. So I couldn’t get through to him. And he said, from. You know, what I learned from him later was he’s sitting there working away, and all of a sudden he clicks, and he sees the white smoke coming out, and he was like, oh, my God. And he just immediately, like, throws on his shoes and coat. He grabs an umbrella because it was raining that night. And he just runs. He just runs straight to St Peter’s and if you’re interested, where we were living, you have to cross all the way to the opposite side of Trastevere, which maybe takes about 10 minutes. And then from there, you go through the Porta Settimiana, and you got to go down this really long, straight road called Via della Lungara that will lead you almost all the way to the Vatican. Then you just got to just take a few more streets. And he said that that street was just. It was just people running. Just the city was running down Via della Lungada. Everybody was running to the Vatican. And all the cars were blocked. Like, couldn’t. If you were in a car, you couldn’t go anywhere. You were stuck. And everybody else was just. Everybody on foot, whether they were the Lungotevere or Via della Lungada or wherever they were, they were running to St. Peter’s and he’s like, I didn’t even open the umbrella. I was just running. So he got there, and we finally were able to call each other. And he’s like, come to where I am, because I can get closer because I have, you know, like, the badge of the Vatican. And so me and my friend were trying to move, and, like, everybody was mad at us. I’m like, no, I actually am allowed to go over here. And they’re like, yeah, right. Yeah, right. I’m like, no, I, I haven’t. We eventually got to really, really close. Now, on either side of St. Peter’s Basilica. Well, there’s a huge staircase in the front. Once you get all the way to the front of the square, there’s a huge staircase. And on the right there’s a statue of St. Peter and on the left there’s a statue of St. Paul. And we were right by the statue of St. Paul on the left hand side. And of course my phone battery dies. Okay, I, I, I did get a picture. I got a picture. Well, let me tell the full story. So we’re standing there, we’re waiting. It took a long time. I thought, you know, when I said to Claudia, I was like, don’t worry, you’re not going to miss it. It’s going to take a while because things have to happen. They do the election, they, you know, from the time that they send out the white smoke, all this stuff happens. Like the Pope go, or the new Pope, you know, he goes into this room that’s called the Room of Tears, which is right off of the Sistine Chapel. It’s a tiny room that is almost always closed. I got to go in there one time, and that’s where the Pope gets dressed. And there’s three sizes of papal robes so that, you know, whoever the Pope is has clothes that will probably fit him. They call it the Room of Tears because usually whoever it is breaks down and cries when he’s there, just out of the overwhelming emotion, you know. And then certain things happen. I’m sure the Pope prays and I’m sure some other stuff goes on. And then eventually he goes out onto the balcony, the main balcony, the benediction loggia, they call it, of St. Peter’s and he only appears there on Christmas Day, on, on Easter, and then the day he’s elected. That’s the only time that the Pope ever appears at that balcony. I cannot remember now that I’m thinking back to it, like, oh, yes, before the Pope comes out. This is important. The master of ceremonies, I want to say it is the master of, anyways, some figure like that, he appears and he says, he does the Urbi et orbi speech. The urbi et orbi means to the city, meaning to Rome, which is Urbi, and to the world orbi. To Rome and the world. Abemus papam, we have a Pope. I mean, those words to somebody who has studied Vatican history and church history and who has done tours of the Vatican for years and years and years. I mean, it’s super exciting. You know, you have to witness that once in your life. And I was so, so happy that I was able to. And they said the name and I missed it. I didn’t even hear it. I didn’t understand it or I didn’t hear, I didn’t recognize it. And a lot of people were like, what, what, what, what? And eventually Claudio said, oh no, it’s, it’s Bergoglio, he’s from Argentina. And I was like, really? What? Like, that’s so bizarre. And then they said the name that he picked and everybody was like very delighted that he had picked the Francis, because there had never been a Pope Francis before. And the main thing that I remember, the thing that I will, will always stick with me, is that when he came out, there was a hush across the piazza that I don’t think I have ever been in a group of people that large and had it go silent so quickly. It was like everybody was sort of under a spell. The first thing the Pope said was buena sera. Which I just feel like nobody expected that that would be the first thing he would say. And the whole crowd just went like, oh, like, just like everybody sighed, like in a delighted way, like, oh my God, how charming, how sweet. How like un presumptuous that he would just say buona sera, as if it was just a normal meeting between friends. And. Yeah, and so I think it was a really great beginning. Like I said. Now towards the end, I think there’s a lot of division and I think there’s a lot of people who don’t appreciate what he’s done or hasn’t done. But when he was first elected, at least the people in Rome, they absolutely loved him. They thought he was just, just adorable. And some people did say, well, you can’t, you shouldn’t choose the name Francis. That is presumptuous. You’re saying I’m so humble that I’m going to call myself Francis, the most humble and the most self denying saint that ever lived, you know, But I like, I think, I think it fits him. I think it fits his outlook on life at least.
Katy
Yeah, I would agree. It does seem to fit his character. I mean, even just the little decisions he’s made that I know about, which I don’t nearly know the breadth that you do. But even just like his decision not to live in the palace, it does feel like he’s trying to emulate a certain kind of humbleness or I remember and you can tell me if this still actually exists, but I Remember when I. Because I moved to Rome. He gets elected in March, you said March 13, 2013. I moved to Rome in September 2013. So he’s pretty new by the time I get there. And I do remember that one of the buzzes of during that year was that he had decided that he was going to install outdoor showers somewhere near St. Peter’s underneath, like, some covering for the homeless people in Rome to able to use, you know, and people were kind of stunned by that, you know, even though the idea is to help the poor and be welcoming to all the people. I do remember people talking about that, like he’s gonna install showers outside of the church, you know.
Tiffany
Yeah. And he also. I don’t remember which day of the week. I think it’s Thursday, the Thursday before Easter, which, forgive me, I don’t remember what that day is called. Maybe it’s just Holy Thursday.
Katy
Monday, Thursday, Monday, Thursday.
Tiffany
I believe Monday, Thursday. Yeah, that sounds. That sounds right. He, you know, the Pope, on that day, washes the feet of. I don’t want to get this wrong. I feel like traditionally he washes the feet of other priests. I can’t remember. I know I’m getting this wrong and people are going to write in and say, no, that’s not how it is. But anyways, I believe that Pope Francis always would wash the feet of migrants and. Or homeless people, if I remember right, instead of other, you know, fellow priests or something. So, yeah, I mean, that’s. That’s a big part of his. His Persona.
Katy
Yeah. I can also tell you. And I have a little audio clip I can play, you know, because he’s so new that he visits Trastevere at some point while I’m living there and living in Trastevere, that neighborhood, same as you. And he came to visit. It was an organized event. People knew he was going to come. And he walked through the crowd. It was, you know, when you. If you’ve read the Bible or the stories of Jesus and you hear the story of maybe him, I don’t know, Palm Sunday, Jesus coming into town, you know, and, you know, everyone’s throwing palm leaves around and laying them out for him. It felt like that, like the crowd, the crowd was so amped, so happy. They were playing all this music. I’ll play. I’ll play some of the sound I recorded from that day. They are flinging their baby. Babies toward him, you know, like leaning over the crowd. If they’re not close enough, they’re trying to dangle the child so that he can touch their feet or something. That kind of excitement was something I’d never witnessed about a particular person. A particular person moving through a crowd and the crowd, like, shoving in, just trying to have him somehow graze against them was something to be to behold, for sure.
Tiffany
Hallelujah. Yeah. I feel like those first couple of years, that was a lot more excitement about him than in more recent times. I. I don’t know, maybe just the newness and the excitement of a, A new Pope, but also somebody who was different and who had a sort of different outlook on life and a different, you know, very different from Benedict xvi. Very different. I don’t know, I think that eventually maybe that got old or not. Not that it got old, but I think maybe it didn’t amaze people as much as it had before. Maybe they got used to it. But because I as well, I remember those first few years, it was just like absolute delirium with people, you know, wanting to touch him and wanting to be near him. And I don’t. I don’t know, but I don’t feel like it’s. It’s lasted the way that it did for John Paul ii. John Paul ii, I think, was. I think he’s going to go down his. In history as the most beloved Pope of maybe all time. Just. It’s just a different level. It was just a different level.
Katy
So are you gonna be, let’s say, heaven forbid, that Pope Francis does pass away sometime soon. Are you gonna try to be in that courtyard when the white smoke comes up again?
Tiffany
Oh, at the election, I would love to, but I have a different life now. I mean, I don’t just live in Trastevere. No child, you know, can hop down there, just walk for 15 minutes or 20 minutes and be at the Vatican and, you know, not have a bedtime and, you know, bedtime story to read. So I don’t know, I might try to go down if there’s like a daytime one. I can’t remember what time of day the day ones are, but I might go down. It’ll be hard to find. I’m not to take the Metro now. I’m thinking. No, I’m like planning. I was like, it’s going to be hard to park.
Katy
You’re like, I’m going to have to go then. Yeah, yeah.
Tiffany
But I probably will try to go at least once. But, yeah, I mean, it’s history, right? It’s exciting. I mean, I’ll always be able to say I was in St. Peter’s Square when Pope Francis was elected and That’s. That’s a. It’s a cool thing to be able to say.
Katy
Yeah. To have this all happen during a jubilee year is also.
Tiffany
I know, right?
Katy
Very interesting.
Tiffany
It’s a jubilee year as well. So think of the lucky people who, you know are going to be in Rome during the Conclave. Except it’s not so lucky, because if you’re in Rome during the Conclave, you don’t get to go to the Sistine Chapel.
Katy
That’s true. It’s a little bit occupied.
Tiffany
Yeah. And if, like, if you. I mean, back in 2013, it was pretty easy to go to the Vatican. You could go. I mean, I’m trying to think now, if there were online tickets in 2013. I can’t remember when they instituted the online tickets.
Katy
I bought mine at the door when.
Tiffany
- Yeah, you can still buy them at the door. It’s just nobody wants to wait in that line. So people will try to buy them online. So I can’t remember. I can’t remember if they had online tickets yet in 2013. I kind of think they did, but the point is, if they did, which I’m 90% sure they did, they weren’t that hard to get. You know, you just go on the website a month in advance and you book them. Nowadays, it’s so hard to get them. They’re just so impossible to get. Either you’ve worked really hard to get them, you’ve planned far in advance, or you’ve paid. You’ve shelled out a ton of money to the tour agency to get you tickets or to go on a tour. And so if you already have that booked and you happen to be in Rome, when there’s a conclave, that money is spent, you know, you’re not getting that money back. You know, but to go to the. I mean, the Vatican is amazing. Without the Sistine Chapel, there’s still so much to see, but obviously, you know, you don’t want to miss the Sistine Chapel. And in. During the conclave of 2013, I wrote an article in the magazine that I. That I was writing for at the time, and it was about the convent of Santa Francesco Romana. Have you ever been there, Katy? Did I drag you there when you lived in Rome? I mean, the type of thing I would have done, I would have dragged you to.
Katy
Yeah. Tell me more.
Tiffany
Incredible. I’ve only been there probably three times in my life, but it’s only open one day a year. It’s open on March 9th every year because it’s still, like, none still Live there. It’s still a convent. But what’s amazing about it is that it was frescoed in the 1400s by Antonia Romano, who’s this really wonderful early Roman Renaissance artist. And it’s just incredible. Like, it’s just, like everywhere you look, if you like those early Renaissance frescoes that are so different from the Sistine Chapel, like, it’s. It almost seems like a different era. I just love that stuff. So since the first time I went, like, I kind of became obsessed with it, and I wrote an article about it. The preface of the article was, if you’re in Rome during the Conclave. Because I think by that point, yeah. Because Benedict XVI quit in February. So it was. I would have known in February that this was gonna happen, likely in March. So I said, you know, if you happen to be in Rome during the Conclave, you are gonna find that the Sistine Chapel is closed. However, if you happen to be in Rome on March 9, you are in luck, because you’re going to get to see something that almost nobody. Almost no visitor ever sees, and not even most Romans. And so I wrote this whole thing out, and I talked about the art, and of course, I went as well, because I try. You know, I used to try to go every year. Now I don’t manage to do it that often. But I was there in line because you got to wait in line and because, you know, all the old Roman ladies, like, when. When there’s something special open, they all go, and they all line up. And I’m waiting in line with. I think I was with a friend. And I see these American people, and I’m like, how did these American people find out about this? Like, this is so rare. And I asked, and I was like, where did you find out about this? We read an article in Wear magazine. And I was like, oh, it was my article.
Katy
That’s awesome. I love that.
Tiffany
I was like, oh, I’m so glad that you guys, like, took my advice. Like, yeah. Kind of bummed about the Sistine Chapel, but this is going to be cool. Yeah.
Katy
And maybe more memorable in some ways, because you’ve seen pictures of the Sistine Chapel and you haven’t seen pictures of this. Most likely.
Tiffany
Yeah.
Katy
I don’t think I’ve actually been there before because I think you had just discovered it when I moved there, and then, I don’t know, we probably just didn’t think to bring it up on March 9th. And I have been in Rome in March multiple occasions, and yet I’ve never done this. So I will need to make a point of it, for sure.
Tiffany
Well, you just need to come to Rome next month, Katy. You need to cover the Conclave. We might have another March Conclave. Sorry, I’m not trying to.
Katy
That’s true.
Tiffany
I’m not trying to make any predictions.
Katy
Yes, yes, that’s true. I probably am not going to make it this particular month, it seems like, but I will be watching from afar and we certainly can talk about this more. And if you want to take—I don’t know if you can take pictures by going in on March 9th.
Tiffany
But hey, yeah, I do have some pictures. It is one of those incredible places that I get overly excited about. Those places include the, you know, the church of Santa Maria della Morte, El Orazione, which Katy and I got to visit on our first Bittersweet Life. I mean, and that was so crazy because we literally. You had never been there. You’ve been dying to see this church and the crypt, the underground crypt, basically, since 2013, because it had been closed the entire time since then until now. And they had recently restored it. And I had wanted to take our group there, but I had not been able to get an appointment. We happened to be walking by and this nun comes out and I was like, is it open? She’s like, yeah, come in.
Katy
Yeah. That was with our very first group of. Of Bittersweet life Roman adventures. And it was such a surprise that…
Tiffany
Yeah, those are the kind of things.
Katy
You are in the mid—if I remember correctly. We’re standing in front of it. We’re talking about why this church is special. This church, by the way, is covered in like, skeletons, which is not—t’s unusual decoration for a Catholic church. You’re standing outside talking about, like, why this church is unusual, what it did, why it’s covered in skeletons, how we’ve never, ever. Katy’s never been able to get into it before. And that’s when the nun happens to open the door and you just said, hold on a second, like you’re practically mid sentence, you know, in your description. One second. And then we all ended up going in and. Yeah, it was incredibly memorable.
Tiffany
Yeah. I mean, it’s so interesting how in Rome, so many wonderful places are sort of. They have nuns as gatekeepers. I mean, if you think about just some of the places that we go on our trip, when we go to Santa Chichilia, we have to buzz and, you know, it’s the little side door that nobody ever notices is there and you buzz there and you. The nun, a couple euros and she Lets you take the elevator up to the hidden choir loft where you can see the amazing frescoes by Cavallini. Or you go to Santa Quattro Coronati, and, you know, you pay the nun there in the little round thing that spins around where, you know, they used to deposit babies, and you could deposit your baby anonymously. If you couldn’t, you know, take care of your baby or didn’t want to without having to, you know, resort to throwing them in the river, you could give them to the nuns. And now that’s the spot where you pay the nuns so that you can go in and see the amazing chapel that’s there. There’s so many places like that. And the same with Santa Francesca Romana, that convent. You know, it’s. The only reason it’s open on May 9 is because that is the day that Santa Francesca Romana died. And so in honor of her, who founded that order, they open it up. They open this incredible place up to the public. And so, yeah, the nuns, they’ve got a lot of treasures and secret places they’re hiding. And we discovered a new place just last year, the cloister of Santa Maria Sopra Minerva, which, you know, you. There you go. You saw that place before I did. I knew that it had recently opened, but I had never been there. It was another place that had been closed for maybe ever. It might have just never been open to the public. And so Katy and I always have our ears open for these places. I mean, it’s easier for me because I’m over here, but, you know, these new places that are opening up and new places that have been restored or reopened, and we take. Take an incredible amount of delight in introducing these secret gems and these hidden places to the people who come on our trips with us, because they are so. First of all, they’re incredible. They’re the kind of places that if they were in any other city in the world, they’d be, like, the top attraction. So it’s not like they’re. Oh, yeah, there’s this kind of, like, okay thing. And nobody goes there because it’s not a big deal. It’s like. No, it’s a huge deal. It’s just that this is a city that also has the Coliseum and the Sistine Chapel, and people only have so much time, and so they don’t go there or they don’t know about it. It. It’s fine. I personally, as a tourist, I love to feel like I’ve seen something that other people haven’t seen or that most People haven’t seen.
Katy
Yeah, I know. I totally agree with you. And also, because these places are so beautiful and so secret and so ancient feeling, it also has that feeling of almost like your life becomes a storybook for a second, but it feels like you actually have. Have stepped into a time past, basically. And that is such an interesting feeling. It’s almost like you get to have a glimpse of what it might have been, like if you lived in the 14th century or if you lived in the 13th or the 12th century, you know, or whatever. I mean, it’s. It’s. For me, it tickles. That same thing that, like, literature. When I was a kid used to, when a story would tell you about a secret passageway that these kids found and you got to go into it, it has that same feeling. And that is one of my favorite, favorite things about discovering these secrets. Like, when we walked into that church covered in skeletons, I had been walking past that church for over a decade, wondering, like, what does the skeleton motif continue throughout the whole thing? What is going on in there?
Tiffany
Short answer. Yes.
Katy
Yes. But so it was just so thrilling to go, oh, my gosh. I’m actually walking through the door. I’m actually gonna walk around the sanctuary. And they’re like, oh, there’s a crypt here. We’re gonna go down to the crypt, too.
Tiffany
Okay.
Katy
You know, I mean, it just had that feeling of like, oh, my gosh, it’s actually happening, you know, Like, I mean, I’m in the adventure story, you know?
Tiffany
Yeah. For me, Santa Francesco Romana, which unfortunately, we won’t be able to ever take our people to if we continue to doing it in October. But maybe one day we’ll start a march tour. Yeah, maybe. But what I love about that place is the street. It’s just this row of old buildings. Yes, they look old. They look like they’re totally like Renaissance era buildings, but they’re very plain and boring. They’re like brown looks just like painted mud on the front of the building. I mean, it’s so simple and so basic. And when you walk in there and you think this is what’s behind some of these walls, like, it makes you realize the treasures that are kept in that city, that even behind the most humble and basic walls, there can be this kind of art just hidden away that you people only get to see one day out of the year. Like, what else is there that we don’t know about? It’s incredible.
Katy
Yeah, it is incredible. I mean, it stands to reason that you’ll be uncovering secrets for the rest of your life, really?
Tiffany
I hope so.
Katy
Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess it sort of feels like. Why are you not coming to Rome with us this October? It’s the 5th to the 11th, 2025. We’re going to be in Rome. We’re going to be showing you some of these secret discoveries and maybe happening upon others because you never know when we’re walking through.
Tiffany
Anything can happen in Rome. Yeah.
Katy
When a nun opens a door, sometimes you have to go through it. We would love to have you join us. We do have spots open. You can find more information if you Visit our website, thebittersweetlife.net you can also email us and we will send you all the information you want, answer all of your questions. We are here for them. And this is going to be a great and possibly extremely historic time to be in Rome, the year of 2020. So please reach out, come join us. It’s going to be quite the adventure. And personally, I can’t wait to get on with it. Bittersweetlife.net you’ll find all the information or email us. Bittersweetlifepodcastmail.com and Tiffany and I will answer all of your questions. And yeah, hopefully we’ll see you in Rome. Perhaps with the same pope, perhaps with a new pope. Who can say?
Tiffany
Who knows? Who can say all. All I will say is I saw him in person. I was very close to him in 2016 when he baptized my son. And the thought that went through my head at that time, that’s 10, nine, nine years ago. It’s nine years ago. The thought that went through my mind was, he doesn’t have long to live, and that was nine years ago. So, you know, maybe he’s a fighter and maybe, maybe he’s gonna prove us all wrong and maybe he’s gonna live another several years. We don’t know.
Katy
Who knows? But if another pope is chosen by the time our October trip rolls around, I’ll just play that music and noise again from Pope Francis’s visit to Trastevere. The energy around a new pope is also something to behold. If you happen to be in Rome at that time, whether you’re Catholic or not, which I am not, it still is just monumental. So. All right, well, we’ll leave it there and I guess we’ll keep our kind of attention on this. And if anything more happens, we can talk about it. If you happen to be in the square, if Claudio happens to be there, we’ll. We’ll check back in. All right.
Tiffany
Yes, we’ll post the the white smoke. If we see it.
Katy
Right. There you go. And maybe your shaky one picture from the the time you got to see Pope Francis named.
Tiffany
Yeah, I did take one picture. And then I might I think my battery died. And I there was a lady there, American lady. And I was like, can you take my picture with my husband in front of…and I was like, this is my email address.
Katy
She never sent it. Well, you can find us on Instagram, too, if you want to see those pictures. Just look for the Bittersweet Life podcast. All right. Well, we will leave it there. And until next time, this is the Bittersweet Life. I’m Katy Sewall.
Tiffany
I’m Tiffany Parks.
Katy
Join us again.